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[Music]

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congratulations youtube

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you did it you wore me down and you

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sucked me back in

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i have too many subscribers here just to

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walk away entirely

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especially with no alternative that

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truly stacks up

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and so many copycat channels uploading

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my shows for me anyway

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but we can't forget the thc's account

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here is on thin ice

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and so the youtube version of the show

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has to be prefaced with this little psa

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only to say that episodes that contain

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the kinds of themes that have been

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regularly banned on youtube

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will not appear here and even with that

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precaution there's already enough in the

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archive to get us removed

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so remember that the higher side chats

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could be banned or put in time out again

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at any time and i won't be able to tell

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you guys about it

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so if you feel like it's been too long

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since you've heard from me here on this

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digital dystopian draconian data mining

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monster of a police state seeking

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platform

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your first step should be to check the

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highersidechats.com for the latest shows

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brace yourself because you're about to

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dive into another free first hour

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episode of the higher side chats

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and we just want to let you know that

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whether you're looking for a companion

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through your paranoid insomnia

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entertaining yourself through one of

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life's mundane activities

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or trying to ward off the internal

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screams of all those sad smothered souls

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around

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the office thc is here and you should

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know that every episode of the higher

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side chats has an entire second

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hour for plus members sign up at the

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highersidechats.com

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and you'll get years of plus show

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archives lifetime forum access

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a special invite to greg carlwood's

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monthly joint sessions

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mp3s of thc music bonus episodes

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tour videos and 10 off t-shirts

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grinders and whatever else ends up in

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the higher side store it's eight dollars

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a month that you won't miss

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so become a plus member and treat

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yourself in these troubled times

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always action-packed and commercial-free

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which means you'll unfortunately

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in the 1930s president franklin delano

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roosevelt addressed the nation through a

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series of radio broadcasts known as the

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fireside

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chats his aim was to reassure the common

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man that our society would recover from

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its troubled times

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well we're far from 1930 and i deal with

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a different kind of fire

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for a new era of worldly frustration we

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offer a fresh conversation

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i'm greg carlwood and these are the

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higher side chats

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all right people another day another

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deep dive into the mechanations of the

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big machine from sunny san diego i'm

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greg carlwood and if you ask me

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it's getting harder to have an

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open-minded non-political conversation

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or drill down into the nuances of nearly

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anything these days whether it's viruses

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vaccines climate or current events

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because the propaganda of the political

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parties have bagged and tagged nearly

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every idea and ideological position

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and convince the masses to shut

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themselves off from anything that smells

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of the world outside of their personal

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bubble

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it's a dangerous place for the people to

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be when they stop talking to each other

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but we will walk through the minefield

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as we do because to me

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conspiracy culture has always meant

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examining the unseen and secret plans of

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the capstone cabal

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coordinating advantage for themselves

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selling us on slogging through an unfair

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system as we grasp for the lost idea of

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the american dream

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and going to great lengths to make sure

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the middle class and working poor

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are too busy arguing about abortion

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religion sports racism privilege and the

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rest of it

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to work together on the things that

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matter most to the people at the top so

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today we're going to re-examine the

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systematic attacks in the black

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community since the time of slavery

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the socio-economic roadblocks they've

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had to deal with

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and the heavy hand of the criminal

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justice system and keeping the american

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caste system in place as best it can

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to do that we have here today

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sociologists dr

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angela hattery and dr earl smith two phd

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level professors dedicated to educating

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people on these very things

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winners of multiple awards and authors

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of several great books together with

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titles like

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prisoner reentry and social capital the

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long road to reintegration

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african-american families today myths

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and realities

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the social dynamics of family violence

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policing black bodies how black lives

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are surveilled and how to work for

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change

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and gender power and violence responding

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to

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sexual and intimate partner violence in

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society today

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just to name a few they're two highly

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educated experts with over 30 years

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experience

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that have gotten very comfortable with

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uncomfortable conversations and i salute

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them for it smith and hattery welcome to

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the higher side

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thank you thanks for having us oh well

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thanks so much for doing this i reached

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out after reading

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policing black bodies and thought you

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covered a lot of ground that would be

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beneficial for us to talk about

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and just so you guys have a little bit

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of context i've always tried to make the

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higher side chats a very broad and

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non-political

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quote-unquote conspiracy show and i've

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always found it weird that the shows

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that have built up

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this conspiracy genre are usually white

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conservative american men so boxing

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about how unfair the system is and it is

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unfair for anyone who's not connected

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but to me conspiracy means looking at

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the military putting chemical sprayers

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and the pruitt i go

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projects in st louis or dark aspects of

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big pharma's history such as the

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tuskegee syphilis experiments

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or running birth control experiments in

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the philippines that hurt a lot of

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people

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or using the criminal justice system to

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destroy black families and keep them in

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poverty

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or stealing land from native americans

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it's all in the soup if you ask me and

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we common folk should be united by these

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things but for some reason

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it descends into a debate over who has

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it worse or

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how bad is it really for one group over

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another a situation

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i'm sure you're both well familiar with

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by now to some degree

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right absolutely we hear these questions

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a lot

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and how do you usually address it when

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this kind of stuff comes up

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that could take an entire broadcast

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actually

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but i think what we try to do is use

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facts

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and point people to history

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reality numbers not that we have to get

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overly bogged down in the numbers but

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one of the strategies that i use in

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class

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when i'm confronted with this kind of a

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question is

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to point out what the facts are so if

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you're thinking about the criminal

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justice system

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almost 50 of people who are incarcerated

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just less than that about 45

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of all of the people that we have locked

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up in a jail cell

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are black men and yet black men make up

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only six percent of the united states

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population

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so that's probably suggesting that

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something's going on

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right that if it were just

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and people toss the word random around

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without really understanding statistics

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but

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if it were just random it wouldn't look

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that way

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right so asking people to think about

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disproportionality

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another strategy i use is to ask

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students if they can imagine a situation

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in which a statistic like that would be

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reversed can they imagine living in the

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united states

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and instead of black men being almost 10

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times more

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likely to be incarcerated than they are

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in the population

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what would it look like if white men's

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incarceration rate were 10 times

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their membership in the population like

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can you imagine that

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and if you can't then there's probably

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something going on those are just some

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and i wanted to read a quote from

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policing black bodies that i think most

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of our audience will appreciate but you

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say

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we wrote this book to make people

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uncomfortable to disrupt stereotypes

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about black bodies and to debunk

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myths and poke at deeply held

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ideological beliefs

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to expose the machine of racism this

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book is meant to

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invoke discussion and controversy

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everyone who reads this book will likely

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find

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something they disagree with and that's

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okay what we hope to

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do is to get people thinking about the

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issues in ways that they haven't thought

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about them before

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as systemic and deliberate and i think

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that

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ending and i love a good raw

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conversation but

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can you elaborate on the stereotypes and

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myths

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that you tend to face most often with

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this sort of material

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okay so follow up on professor hattery's

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point about the black men who are

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overly incarcerated even though they are

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less than 10

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in this general population so

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you would have we have not you would

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have we have

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in our largest society stereotypes about

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black men black boys black teenagers

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black men we have stereotypes about

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these folks

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that they're always up to something

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that's not legal

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they're big uh monstrous

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types and if you don't watch out they're

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gonna get you

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so when we lay out the argument that you

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just heard

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we also have to talk about

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one of the chapters that we have in the

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book

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exonerations so

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what that tells us is that it all starts

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with the police

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because these guys obviously are up to

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something they did

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something so we have to surveil them

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and then when we catch them we arrest

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them

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and that's a good thing because now

289
00:10:10,710 --> 00:10:08,160
they're off the street

290
00:10:12,310 --> 00:10:10,720
blah blah blah so goes the argument so

291
00:10:14,389 --> 00:10:12,320
goes the stereotype

292
00:10:16,470 --> 00:10:14,399
what we did in one of our chapters near

293
00:10:19,750 --> 00:10:16,480
the end of the book we said okay

294
00:10:21,910 --> 00:10:19,760
then why is it that we now see

295
00:10:23,269 --> 00:10:21,920
and the public sees because it's become

296
00:10:26,590 --> 00:10:23,279
a part of a

297
00:10:29,910 --> 00:10:26,600
public conversation all these

298
00:10:32,389 --> 00:10:29,920
exonerations taking place

299
00:10:33,990 --> 00:10:32,399
meaning people did not commit the crimes

300
00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:34,000
for which they spent

301
00:10:40,949 --> 00:10:37,120
on average of 15 years in prison

302
00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:40,959
and why disproportionately are those who

303
00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:42,640
are being exonerated

304
00:10:47,590 --> 00:10:46,320
black men i mean put the two things

305
00:10:49,509 --> 00:10:47,600
together

306
00:10:51,670 --> 00:10:49,519
connect the dots you've arrested

307
00:10:54,069 --> 00:10:51,680
somebody on the front end

308
00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:54,079
for a crime they didn't commit because

309
00:11:00,069 --> 00:10:56,959
you think that this is what they do

310
00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:00,079
and then 15 20 25 40

311
00:11:03,430 --> 00:11:02,560
years later you have to let him out of

312
00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:03,440
prison

313
00:11:10,150 --> 00:11:07,200
because the slow moving system

314
00:11:11,590 --> 00:11:10,160
has found out hey guess what they didn't

315
00:11:14,030 --> 00:11:11,600
do it

316
00:11:15,590 --> 00:11:14,040
not a technical violation but they

317
00:11:18,150 --> 00:11:15,600
absolutely didn't

318
00:11:19,509 --> 00:11:18,160
do it and disproportionately you can

319
00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:19,519
look up the data

320
00:11:23,670 --> 00:11:22,800
those persons mostly men few women are

321
00:11:26,230 --> 00:11:23,680
involved

322
00:11:27,269 --> 00:11:26,240
mostly men who are being exonerated are

323
00:11:28,790 --> 00:11:27,279
black men

324
00:11:30,870 --> 00:11:28,800
i don't know what else you have to talk

325
00:11:33,990 --> 00:11:30,880
about something

326
00:11:37,269 --> 00:11:34,000
is absolutely wrong here so

327
00:11:38,069 --> 00:11:37,279
the stereotype out there is that these

328
00:11:41,269 --> 00:11:38,079
black men

329
00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:41,279
i mean oh god we use a little video

330
00:11:45,430 --> 00:11:42,560
sometimes

331
00:11:46,069 --> 00:11:45,440
called the slowest car in town and

332
00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:46,079
there's a

333
00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:48,560
highly professional black male with his

334
00:11:54,550 --> 00:11:51,519
suit and tie on and his briefcase

335
00:11:56,949 --> 00:11:54,560
is probably in the 70s made in the 70s

336
00:11:59,190 --> 00:11:56,959
and he starts off on the top floor and

337
00:12:01,430 --> 00:11:59,200
by the time he gets to the bottom

338
00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:01,440
different whites have gotten on and off

339
00:12:06,069 --> 00:12:02,480
the elevator

340
00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:06,079
by the time he gets to the first floor

341
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:08,240
the portrait of him is that he's a

342
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:10,480
criminal drug addict

343
00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:13,200
fo man at the mouth and it's just the

344
00:12:17,509 --> 00:12:14,000
imagery

345
00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:17,519
of who he is as a black man in american

346
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:18,480
society

347
00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:22,160
so the stereotype exists people can

348
00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:24,480
say i don't see it i've never heard of

349
00:12:29,350 --> 00:12:26,800
it and that's why we talk about it

350
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:29,360
in the book because it's real and it's

351
00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:30,079
deadly

352
00:12:37,430 --> 00:12:34,639
in there

353
00:12:38,550 --> 00:12:37,440
and dive down just one slice even more

354
00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:38,560
deeply

355
00:12:42,629 --> 00:12:41,360
into the exoneration we actually gave a

356
00:12:45,509 --> 00:12:42,639
talk many years ago

357
00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:45,519
and a provost actually at a highly

358
00:12:49,269 --> 00:12:46,560
ranked college

359
00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:49,279
said well you would expect more black

360
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:51,440
men to be in the group of exonerates

361
00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:53,279
because black men are more likely to go

362
00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:54,880
to prison to start with

363
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,360
and we said okay so that's an example of

364
00:13:00,230 --> 00:12:59,040
you know kind of getting some pushback

365
00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:00,240
and in fact

366
00:13:03,990 --> 00:13:02,560
when you drill down even farther into

367
00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:04,000
those numbers

368
00:13:08,629 --> 00:13:07,200
black men are 1.5 times more likely to

369
00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:08,639
be wrongfully convicted

370
00:13:12,069 --> 00:13:10,240
than they're even represented in the

371
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:12,079
prison population to start with

372
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:15,360
so even there in that deep dive

373
00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:19,200
slice yet again the numbers themselves

374
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:20,720
tell a different story right

375
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:23,519
so if black men are 40 or 45 of the

376
00:13:26,949 --> 00:13:25,279
prison population we'd expect them to be

377
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:26,959
40 or 45 percent

378
00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:29,200
of the exonerate population but instead

379
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:31,440
they're more like 75 or 80

380
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:32,880
and i don't want to you know have your

381
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:34,880
listeners be too tied up in the stats

382
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:35,360
but

383
00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:38,560
i think that they can help underscore

384
00:13:42,069 --> 00:13:40,079
that there's something going on that's

385
00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:42,079
not just random

386
00:13:45,829 --> 00:13:44,240
and a lot of it is caused by the social

387
00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:45,839
stereotype

388
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:48,800
it's out there and we have examples and

389
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:50,160
you've heard it because

390
00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:53,040
they're really simple and they're clear

391
00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:55,040
young black guys

392
00:13:59,030 --> 00:13:57,519
they go into the store and automatically

393
00:14:02,629 --> 00:13:59,040
it's assumed

394
00:14:06,150 --> 00:14:02,639
they're in there to steal something

395
00:14:09,269 --> 00:14:06,160
i wouldn't expect that to happen

396
00:14:13,470 --> 00:14:09,279
to my young white male

397
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:13,480
son or cousin or uncle but it happens

398
00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:16,000
disproportionately to young black men

399
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:17,440
and it also happens

400
00:14:23,670 --> 00:14:20,560
to people who are visible

401
00:14:26,069 --> 00:14:23,680
movie stars it happens to oprah

402
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:26,079
winfrey she's not a male but it happens

403
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:26,800
to her

404
00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:30,800
it happens to forest whitaker

405
00:14:37,509 --> 00:14:35,040
big movie star oscar winning movie star

406
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,519
so it doesn't matter what your

407
00:14:41,750 --> 00:14:39,120
achievements are

408
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:41,760
if you fit that demographic then that

409
00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:44,480
stereotype sticks

410
00:14:50,949 --> 00:14:47,600
and it shouldn't i mean it absolutely

411
00:14:51,829 --> 00:14:50,959
shouldn't and yet people in that

412
00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:51,839
demographic

413
00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:54,560
know by the time they're probably 10 or

414
00:14:57,350 --> 00:14:55,040
12

415
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:57,360
if not sooner this is what i have to

416
00:15:02,790 --> 00:14:59,440
deal with throughout my life

417
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:02,800
yes great points and i'm reminded of a

418
00:15:06,629 --> 00:15:04,639
dave chappelle special recently where

419
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:06,639
there was a tough-looking young black

420
00:15:09,350 --> 00:15:07,600
guy in the crowd and

421
00:15:12,550 --> 00:15:09,360
he gives him [\h__\h] for a minute as a

422
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:12,560
comedian should but then he says hey

423
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:14,959
be easy on this guy because he's under a

424
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:16,560
tremendous amount of

425
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:20,160
pressure to be perfect you know and

426
00:15:23,509 --> 00:15:21,519
it's not the same kind of pressure that

427
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:23,519
other young people deal with and

428
00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:25,040
young people aren't perfect they're

429
00:15:30,310 --> 00:15:27,360
constantly making mistakes so

430
00:15:31,509 --> 00:15:30,320
if you criminalize what is just

431
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:31,519
misbehavior

432
00:15:38,629 --> 00:15:35,360
or criminalize typical coming of age

433
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:38,639
lashing out that's how you get into the

434
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:40,399
you know school-to-prison pipeline

435
00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:42,720
situation and it does start very young

436
00:15:46,870 --> 00:15:45,120
with this kind of bias and i do like

437
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:46,880
really creative ways to examine

438
00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:49,279
injustice and i think exonerations

439
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:51,440
is a great one and another one is like

440
00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:52,959
how did they get in the system in the

441
00:15:56,949 --> 00:15:54,560
first place and it is

442
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:56,959
through that school-to-prison pipeline a

443
00:16:01,509 --> 00:15:59,199
lot of the times

444
00:16:02,230 --> 00:16:01,519
yeah absolutely and i think for your

445
00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:02,240
listeners

446
00:16:06,389 --> 00:16:04,720
who may not spend as much time thinking

447
00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:06,399
about this as we do which is probably a

448
00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:08,000
lot of them

449
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:10,000
i think even when we started looking at

450
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:12,160
the school-to-prison pipeline

451
00:16:17,030 --> 00:16:14,800
we were thinking of the pipeline from

452
00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:17,040
juvenile detention to adult prison that

453
00:16:21,430 --> 00:16:19,040
once a young man

454
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:21,440
or woman but it's way disproportionately

455
00:16:24,949 --> 00:16:22,320
men

456
00:16:26,069 --> 00:16:24,959
of any race once a young man is caught

457
00:16:27,749 --> 00:16:26,079
in the system

458
00:16:29,990 --> 00:16:27,759
of juvenile detention and is

459
00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:30,000
accumulating priors

460
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:32,560
that key word in sentencing that they're

461
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:34,480
then disproportionately likely to be

462
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:36,000
sucked into the prison system

463
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:38,800
and when we started reading and paying

464
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:40,720
attention more carefully

465
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:43,120
to what you were just describing which

466
00:16:47,189 --> 00:16:45,680
is the criminalization of misbehavior or

467
00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:47,199
mischief

468
00:16:51,829 --> 00:16:49,600
it was pretty stunning to see that kids

469
00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:51,839
were being arrested as we detail in the

470
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:52,480
book

471
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:55,199
you know the case of a kid just one

472
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:56,800
county over from where we were living at

473
00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:57,600
the time

474
00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:00,240
who was arrested and handcuffed and put

475
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:01,920
in the backseat of a police cruiser for

476
00:17:05,189 --> 00:17:04,079
taking a 65 cent carton of milk off the

477
00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:05,199
lunch line

478
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:07,280
it's just absurd and you might say okay

479
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:08,400
well that was rare

480
00:17:13,669 --> 00:17:11,280
but it's really not that rare there are

481
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:13,679
tons and tons of cases of kids

482
00:17:17,029 --> 00:17:16,319
being arrested in schools for things

483
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:17,039
like that

484
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:19,120
there's another case of a kid who took

485
00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:20,640
some chicken nuggets

486
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:22,559
and usually when you dig down into the

487
00:17:27,189 --> 00:17:24,640
story it's not even took and so i want

488
00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:27,199
to make sure that the listener isn't

489
00:17:31,110 --> 00:17:28,880
sort of falsely lulled into thinking

490
00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:31,120
well yes that kid took the 65 cent

491
00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:32,720
carton of milk they should pay for that

492
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:34,160
you know in this case the kid was on

493
00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:36,000
free reduced lunch

494
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:38,400
the kid was entitled to a carton of milk

495
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:39,200
for free

496
00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:41,600
you know one of the chicken nugget cases

497
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:43,039
the kid claims

498
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:46,080
that he was hungry that his buddy had a

499
00:17:48,549 --> 00:17:47,120
lunch plan

500
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:48,559
and gave him chicken nuggets off his

501
00:17:52,230 --> 00:17:50,400
tray and so

502
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:52,240
like first of all there's nothing that

503
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:53,520
the child

504
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:55,360
and i want to emphasize these are

505
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:56,559
children

506
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:58,000
there's nothing the child did that was

507
00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:00,000
even wrong and even if

508
00:18:04,390 --> 00:18:02,400
they did take a carton of milk i mean

509
00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:04,400
when i was a kid

510
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:07,360
growing up something like that probably

511
00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:09,360
didn't even make it home

512
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:12,559
maybe if you were a sort of cereal

513
00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:15,280
poacher of the carton of milk someone

514
00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:16,480
would call your mom

515
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:19,039
hopefully not your dad in my case it was

516
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:19,679
harder

517
00:18:23,669 --> 00:18:21,760
but you know somebody might call your

518
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:23,679
mom and say you know what's going on but

519
00:18:26,789 --> 00:18:24,080
more

520
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:26,799
likely than not it would have meant you

521
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:28,240
had to stay after school and bang some

522
00:18:32,710 --> 00:18:30,720
erasers you know on the brick wall

523
00:18:34,590 --> 00:18:32,720
on the playground or something like that

524
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:34,600
and so this idea that we have

525
00:18:41,669 --> 00:18:38,720
criminalized the most ridiculousness

526
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:41,679
it's devastating to black families

527
00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:42,880
because

528
00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:45,760
when that happens those kids often do

529
00:18:50,470 --> 00:18:47,360
end up in juvenile detention

530
00:18:53,750 --> 00:18:50,480
or if not as some other folks have

531
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:53,760
documented 50 percent of black children

532
00:18:56,710 --> 00:18:54,400
have some

533
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:56,720
touch with the foster care and child

534
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:58,799
protective services child welfare

535
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:01,280
system and if they get touched that

536
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:02,640
doesn't necessarily mean they go into

537
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:04,400
foster care but if they're touched by

538
00:19:08,070 --> 00:19:05,760
that system

539
00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:08,080
then if they steal the 65-cent carton of

540
00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:09,280
milk they're definitely going to

541
00:19:12,789 --> 00:19:10,480
juvenile detention

542
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:12,799
and now they are in the system and so

543
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:14,320
that sort of

544
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:17,520
first point of contact it's hard to

545
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:18,880
overstate

546
00:19:23,909 --> 00:19:21,760
how important that is in completely

547
00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:23,919
ruining someone's life that those system

548
00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:25,840
they're just nearly impossible to get

549
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:27,840
out of so they have devastating

550
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:29,600
consequences

551
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,640
yes yes great points and i went to

552
00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:34,480
private school for most of my life until

553
00:19:37,909 --> 00:19:36,080
i got kicked out and had to go to public

554
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:37,919
school when i saw there was a cop walk

555
00:19:40,710 --> 00:19:39,039
in the halls i was

556
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:40,720
definitely shocked i was like i don't

557
00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:42,240
know if this is

558
00:19:47,350 --> 00:19:44,640
appropriate but i agree it's gonna

559
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:47,360
affect black kids even worse but

560
00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:49,520
this is an interesting one so when i've

561
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:51,200
tried to do shows like this

562
00:19:55,510 --> 00:19:52,799
in the past i've actually gotten

563
00:19:57,830 --> 00:19:55,520
feedback from black guys that say

564
00:19:58,870 --> 00:19:57,840
we don't need your liberal coddling it's

565
00:20:00,510 --> 00:19:58,880
insulting

566
00:20:03,190 --> 00:20:00,520
and it puts us in a position of

567
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:03,200
inferiority to you to even insinuate

568
00:20:06,789 --> 00:20:04,480
that we need your help

569
00:20:08,230 --> 00:20:06,799
or that we need the stoner white boy to

570
00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:08,240
do a show about

571
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:11,360
black people you know it's like damned

572
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:12,960
if you do damned if you don't i'm sure

573
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:13,679
you've heard

574
00:20:17,669 --> 00:20:15,360
this from people with these sorts of

575
00:20:19,830 --> 00:20:17,679
opinions how do you typically respond

576
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:19,840
to that i mean earl doesn't have to deal

577
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:21,600
with it the same way i might but

578
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:23,760
i am curious when you face that what do

579
00:20:26,870 --> 00:20:25,120
you say

580
00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:26,880
it's a great question i get it all the

581
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:28,240
time

582
00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:29,600
you know what does a white person know

583
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:31,760
about policing black bodies

584
00:20:34,630 --> 00:20:33,120
and one of the ways that i respond to

585
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:34,640
that is i don't know what it feels like

586
00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:36,159
i can't know what it feels like because

587
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:38,000
i'm not black

588
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:40,480
but i have learned that you have to sort

589
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:42,480
of walk the walk not just talk the talk

590
00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:44,559
and so you have to really listen

591
00:20:49,029 --> 00:20:47,600
and you have to really demonstrate that

592
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:49,039
you've thought about the issues

593
00:20:53,990 --> 00:20:50,320
carefully

594
00:20:57,430 --> 00:20:54,000
and systematically and also i think

595
00:20:59,830 --> 00:20:57,440
as a white person it's about centering

596
00:21:01,590 --> 00:20:59,840
the voices of black people so this isn't

597
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:01,600
my opinion

598
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:04,880
i mean i'm only the expert because i've

599
00:21:08,149 --> 00:21:07,760
studied and interviewed and observed and

600
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:08,159
done

601
00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:11,200
science to be able to arrive

602
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:14,240
at data points and empirical analysis to

603
00:21:17,909 --> 00:21:16,400
be able to make the argument

604
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:17,919
you know i think it's a fair critique i

605
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:19,360
think white people need to hear that

606
00:21:23,590 --> 00:21:20,880
critique

607
00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:23,600
and be okay getting it and still get

608
00:21:27,669 --> 00:21:24,000
back

609
00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:27,679
in the ring to do the work but i'm going

610
00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:29,360
to toss that to dr smith

611
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:32,640
i mean i would argue that i've had to do

612
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:34,080
the same thing

613
00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:37,760
study research spend time in

614
00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:40,240
one classroom after another classroom

615
00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:41,520
after another year

616
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:45,200
long time to pick up

617
00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:48,240
bachelor's degrees master's degrees

618
00:21:52,630 --> 00:21:50,720
a ridiculously long time to pick up a

619
00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:52,640
phd degree

620
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:55,919
so just being of the demographic doesn't

621
00:22:01,590 --> 00:21:58,400
make you an expert on the topic

622
00:22:04,149 --> 00:22:01,600
and we make this clear i make it clear

623
00:22:04,870 --> 00:22:04,159
and this is why we have a lot of sort of

624
00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:04,880
lightweight

625
00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:08,559
talk that passes around about mentors

626
00:22:11,350 --> 00:22:09,280
and

627
00:22:12,390 --> 00:22:11,360
who can be a mentor you have to be an

628
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:12,400
nba star

629
00:22:15,830 --> 00:22:14,080
you have to be president of the united

630
00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:15,840
states

631
00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:19,120
those issues are talked about but in

632
00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:20,960
reality on the ground

633
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:23,200
you're basically talking about having

634
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:25,440
people in other people's lives

635
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:28,960
who can help them steer the course

636
00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:32,320
follow the pathways that keep them away

637
00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:33,360
from

638
00:22:41,430 --> 00:22:39,120
prison system

639
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:41,440
and that's real and there are real

640
00:22:46,070 --> 00:22:42,720
issues

641
00:22:47,110 --> 00:22:46,080
in and around the quote-unquote black

642
00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:47,120
community

643
00:22:51,029 --> 00:22:49,360
that need to be addressed and i'm glad

644
00:22:53,029 --> 00:22:51,039
that you brought this up

645
00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:53,039
nobody needs anybody telling them

646
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:54,480
anything but

647
00:22:57,909 --> 00:22:57,280
what people often need is a little good

648
00:23:02,149 --> 00:22:57,919
advice

649
00:23:05,270 --> 00:23:02,159
can come from anybody

650
00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:05,280
who's not trying to harm you we don't

651
00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:05,840
need

652
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:09,039
snake oil sales people selling

653
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:11,760
people down the drain but we sure need

654
00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:13,360
people to keep

655
00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:15,760
relaying the message that there's

656
00:23:19,909 --> 00:23:17,280
nothing wrong with

657
00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:19,919
graduating from high school that there's

658
00:23:24,789 --> 00:23:21,280
nothing wrong

659
00:23:27,909 --> 00:23:24,799
with and this is going to

660
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:27,919
inflame some folks get ready there's

661
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:30,080
nothing wrong with

662
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:33,360
not making babies okay

663
00:23:39,990 --> 00:23:36,640
at 14 or 15 years of age

664
00:23:41,110 --> 00:23:40,000
because our data shows that you need to

665
00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:41,120
be

666
00:23:45,430 --> 00:23:43,840
well equipped and prepared to take care

667
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:45,440
of those babies

668
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:48,960
especially in a society where the

669
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:51,600
social safety net is shrinking and

670
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:53,039
disappearing

671
00:23:59,990 --> 00:23:56,480
as you mentioned in your introduction

672
00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:00,000
the disappearance of the american dream

673
00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:03,440
so we do need people inside of these

674
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:05,600
communities working with young people

675
00:24:10,149 --> 00:24:08,320
keeping them on the straight and narrow

676
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:10,159
far as i'm concerned far as we're

677
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:12,480
concerned i don't care they can be from

678
00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:14,480
the philippines they can be from

679
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:16,559
wherever as long as they

680
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:19,600
are not looking to harm folks i'm going

681
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:21,360
to stay away from the baby conversation

682
00:24:25,669 --> 00:24:23,360
but yeah well it's a difficult one but

683
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:25,679
it's a real conversation but what i will

684
00:24:30,390 --> 00:24:28,000
say is one of the things i find

685
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:30,400
really enlightening about teaching the

686
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:32,640
book policing black bodies in a class in

687
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:34,799
a diverse class of students

688
00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:38,640
is remembering that for the most part

689
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:41,279
we're all educated in the same system so

690
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:43,440
when we talk about the history

691
00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:45,520
of sort of how we got here and we talk

692
00:24:51,590 --> 00:24:48,640
about the constitution and we talk about

693
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:51,600
all of the early forms of policing black

694
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:52,400
bodies

695
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:54,240
the black students are as surprised as

696
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:55,440
the white students

697
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:57,120
because that's not really taught

698
00:25:00,549 --> 00:24:58,720
anywhere a lot of students up

699
00:25:02,310 --> 00:25:00,559
every race tell me yeah i sort of heard

700
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:02,320
about black history

701
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:04,799
in school was from harriet tubman to

702
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:05,760
martin luther king

703
00:25:09,669 --> 00:25:07,200
and that's kind of it you know the

704
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:09,679
highlights and so i think it's

705
00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:12,000
also instructive to remember that with

706
00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:13,840
very few exceptions we all came through

707
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:14,880
the same system

708
00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:17,760
which does not teach the kind of stuff

709
00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:19,760
that's important

710
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:21,919
to understand these topics regardless of

711
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:24,640
who your identity is

712
00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:27,679
i was teaching a course last semester

713
00:25:33,830 --> 00:25:30,799
with a lot of women from

714
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:33,840
various parts of the world northern

715
00:25:38,470 --> 00:25:35,200
africa

716
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:38,480
ecuador china

717
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:41,679
bahamas i don't know it was just unusual

718
00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:42,000
mix

719
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:45,440
of primarily women who

720
00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:48,080
came here from someplace else there were

721
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:49,760
a couple of african-american women in

722
00:25:53,909 --> 00:25:50,880
the class as well

723
00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:53,919
who were born here

724
00:25:59,029 --> 00:25:57,360
and this was a class looking at various

725
00:26:02,470 --> 00:25:59,039
race and ethnic groups

726
00:26:06,149 --> 00:26:02,480
the sort of race and ethnicity 101

727
00:26:08,830 --> 00:26:06,159
you know who came over on the mayflower

728
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:08,840
who came through ellis island which

729
00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:10,000
groups

730
00:26:14,390 --> 00:26:13,600
used various methodologies of upward

731
00:26:17,510 --> 00:26:14,400
mobility

732
00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:17,520
to enhance their

733
00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:20,240
situation socially economically

734
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:21,840
politically

735
00:26:28,549 --> 00:26:25,360
and after two or three classes

736
00:26:29,990 --> 00:26:28,559
this young african-american woman pulls

737
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:30,000
me aside

738
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:33,200
and she says oh my gosh i

739
00:26:39,990 --> 00:26:36,320
never learned about these things

740
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:40,000
and i mean she was on it

741
00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:42,080
i don't think she missed and this we got

742
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:45,120
interrupted with covert 19 when they

743
00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:47,360
closed all the schools but up until the

744
00:26:52,630 --> 00:26:50,000
point we were pushed out

745
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:52,640
she was sitting there bright eyed taking

746
00:26:56,230 --> 00:26:53,679
notes

747
00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:56,240
and i said to myself i'm thinking don't

748
00:27:00,149 --> 00:26:57,679
they learn this stuff

749
00:27:01,029 --> 00:27:00,159
nope i mean why aren't they

750
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:01,039
knowledgeable

751
00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:04,320
about some of these basic facts

752
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:08,080
and that's the problem schools buy

753
00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:11,520
textbooks from companies that the board

754
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:12,080
or

755
00:27:15,190 --> 00:27:14,080
whatever whoever it is depending on what

756
00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:15,200
state

757
00:27:20,070 --> 00:27:17,120
approves and they want to make sure that

758
00:27:23,029 --> 00:27:20,080
this isn't in it and that isn't it and

759
00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:23,039
and these facts might be too hard for

760
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:24,960
third and fourth graders and they strip

761
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:27,039
out certain stuff and if the textbook

762
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:28,240
company

763
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:30,080
doesn't abide by the rules they don't

764
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:31,760
get the contract

765
00:27:38,950 --> 00:27:35,039
now you're talking about politics

766
00:27:40,870 --> 00:27:38,960
but it interrupts education

767
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:40,880
i'm sure you and your listeners have

768
00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:42,480
seen the data

769
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:44,159
you look around the world and you look

770
00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:45,919
at where we are

771
00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:49,600
with mathematics science

772
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:52,559
history we don't come close to some of

773
00:27:56,950 --> 00:27:53,679
these other

774
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:56,960
countries and i'll say this and

775
00:28:00,549 --> 00:27:58,480
since we have a little bit of time i

776
00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:00,559
think this footnote will work

777
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:03,200
we taught a summer course a couple of

778
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:05,120
summers ago

779
00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:08,880
for young boys young girls teenagers

780
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:12,640
who came from oh

781
00:28:17,110 --> 00:28:14,799
they came from the balkans they were

782
00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:17,120
high school kids on an exchange program

783
00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:19,440
for the state department and we taught a

784
00:28:23,430 --> 00:28:20,480
class with these

785
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:23,440
kids in it and i'm thinking oh gosh how

786
00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:25,120
are we going to get through this

787
00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:27,279
and we took them through some of the

788
00:28:32,389 --> 00:28:29,120
stuff we're talking about now

789
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:32,399
and we may have shown a clip from

790
00:28:41,029 --> 00:28:37,120
roots the first iteration of roots

791
00:28:44,389 --> 00:28:41,039
which we ended up buying the complete

792
00:28:47,029 --> 00:28:44,399
dvd set for one of their teachers to

793
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:47,039
take back to the balkans because they

794
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:49,600
they didn't have access to it my point

795
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:50,480
is

796
00:28:57,269 --> 00:28:54,000
those young i'll just call them young

797
00:29:01,350 --> 00:28:57,279
people people were so

798
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:01,360
up on u.s social history

799
00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:04,320
it was mind-boggling i mean i'm telling

800
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:04,880
you

801
00:29:10,070 --> 00:29:08,159
mean

802
00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:10,080
we taught on the fourth of july so we

803
00:29:11,990 --> 00:29:11,440
asked the american students to talk

804
00:29:13,590 --> 00:29:12,000
about the history

805
00:29:15,669 --> 00:29:13,600
of the fourth of july it took about five

806
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:15,679
minutes and we asked each of these kids

807
00:29:18,789 --> 00:29:16,960
to talk about the history of the

808
00:29:20,789 --> 00:29:18,799
independence in their countries

809
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:20,799
and they went on and on for you know a

810
00:29:24,149 --> 00:29:22,640
half an hour citing

811
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:24,159
things that had happened in the 15 and

812
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:26,399
1600s and they just really ran circles

813
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:28,720
around the american kids it was kind of

814
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:31,600
pathetic absolutely unbelievable this is

815
00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:33,200
what we're up against

816
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:35,200
and so when people say well i don't

817
00:29:40,389 --> 00:29:37,760
believe that or this is fake news

818
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:40,399
i mean these numbers of deaths from

819
00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:41,760
covet

820
00:29:47,909 --> 00:29:44,799
are not fake news and yet

821
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:47,919
if you can stand it night after night

822
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:51,520
watching the news the numbers are deadly

823
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:53,520
and then there'll always be a clip of

824
00:29:57,430 --> 00:29:55,919
some people in the parking lot somewhere

825
00:29:59,909 --> 00:29:57,440
coming out of a store

826
00:30:02,230 --> 00:29:59,919
and say i don't believe it i want my

827
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:02,240
freedom why should i put on the mask

828
00:30:05,669 --> 00:30:03,840
right well it's tough to know what to

829
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:05,679
believe these days because there are so

830
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:07,600
many people who have an agenda behind

831
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:09,200
the information they're putting out

832
00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:10,960
there's moneyed interests involved that

833
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:12,559
have been here for a long time and it's

834
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:14,399
like man maybe we should have

835
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:16,320
uh restored some faith in our

836
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:18,000
institutions before we had a crisis

837
00:30:20,789 --> 00:30:19,679
situation because that's where we are

838
00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:20,799
now and it's just

839
00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:23,120
chaos but we are really cruising along

840
00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:24,720
here and i wanted to dive into if we

841
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:26,960
could a little bit of the deep history

842
00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:29,120
here because earl i've heard you in a

843
00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:30,720
previous interview

844
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:33,120
say that there's always this debate is

845
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:35,600
it race or is it class and it's actually

846
00:30:38,149 --> 00:30:37,440
just both it shouldn't be difficult to

847
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:38,159
say that

848
00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:40,720
there are both there are things that

849
00:30:44,230 --> 00:30:42,320
keep poor people poor and there are

850
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:44,240
things that keep black people poor

851
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:46,159
and sometimes they overlap there is

852
00:30:50,230 --> 00:30:48,000
definitely a venn diagram there

853
00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:50,240
of a huge place in the middle that a lot

854
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:51,679
of people fall into

855
00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:53,679
and so if we're going to talk about the

856
00:30:57,669 --> 00:30:54,720
history obviously

857
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:57,679
we know a bit about slavery but we hear

858
00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:58,480
terms like

859
00:31:02,149 --> 00:31:01,440
jim crow or black codes and i'm not sure

860
00:31:04,630 --> 00:31:02,159
everyone

861
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:04,640
really knows what those terms mean we

862
00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:07,200
see ghettos and inner cities today and

863
00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:08,000
people

864
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:10,480
still have the thought of well why can't

865
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:12,559
black communities just get it together

866
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:14,480
slavery was a long time ago

867
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:16,960
but there are a lot of institutionalized

868
00:31:20,149 --> 00:31:18,080
socioeconomic

869
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:20,159
disadvantages when it comes to things

870
00:31:23,909 --> 00:31:21,760
like bank loans

871
00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:23,919
ownership of property education as you

872
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:26,080
said and aggressive policing of course

873
00:31:30,789 --> 00:31:28,240
but when it comes to some of these less

874
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:30,799
obvious mechanisms that work to keep

875
00:31:33,909 --> 00:31:32,480
black communities poor

876
00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:33,919
what are some of these factors and

877
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:35,600
aspects of history that

878
00:31:39,509 --> 00:31:37,120
you think are important to highlight

879
00:31:42,789 --> 00:31:39,519
that are pretty unknown

880
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:42,799
well the race class issue

881
00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:45,600
is very important because it plays out

882
00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:46,640
differently

883
00:31:54,470 --> 00:31:50,640
for different racial and ethnic groups

884
00:31:58,230 --> 00:31:54,480
we recognize in the u.s census

885
00:32:01,830 --> 00:31:58,240
five or six quote-unquote races

886
00:32:05,669 --> 00:32:01,840
and one or two ethnic groups

887
00:32:09,509 --> 00:32:05,679
ethnic groups who also have a quote race

888
00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:09,519
and as we explain all the time

889
00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:12,320
these things are not fixed they change

890
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:13,440
and in fact

891
00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:15,360
if you follow the debate coming up to

892
00:32:19,990 --> 00:32:16,960
the next census

893
00:32:20,950 --> 00:32:20,000
there was this attempt to put in another

894
00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:20,960
category

895
00:32:25,269 --> 00:32:23,840
called it's meena and it did go in in

896
00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:25,279
2020 but it's out now

897
00:32:31,789 --> 00:32:28,720
oh okay middle eastern north africa

898
00:32:35,029 --> 00:32:31,799
north africa acronym

899
00:32:37,430 --> 00:32:35,039
m-e-n-a the last

900
00:32:38,149 --> 00:32:37,440
the last thing i saw about a week ago

901
00:32:41,350 --> 00:32:38,159
was

902
00:32:45,269 --> 00:32:41,360
the census pulled it back out and so

903
00:32:49,029 --> 00:32:45,279
those kinds of structural issues show us

904
00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:49,039
that race and ethnicity

905
00:32:56,789 --> 00:32:52,960
is kind of fluid it changes

906
00:32:59,269 --> 00:32:56,799
and it has changed over time so

907
00:33:00,630 --> 00:32:59,279
when you have a race class debate it's

908
00:33:04,630 --> 00:33:00,640
unfortunate that

909
00:33:07,029 --> 00:33:04,640
it's always an either or debate

910
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:07,039
we don't see it that way it has to be

911
00:33:12,070 --> 00:33:08,320
connected

912
00:33:15,029 --> 00:33:12,080
because they're intertwined so

913
00:33:17,269 --> 00:33:15,039
a young white male just graduated from

914
00:33:20,310 --> 00:33:17,279
college

915
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:20,320
just got a job this is hypothetical

916
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:22,720
he's going to go off and make his way

917
00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:24,559
into the world

918
00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:28,240
to do that you got to have money

919
00:33:32,710 --> 00:33:31,600
and you got to have money to pay the

920
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:32,720
rent

921
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:35,840
you got to have money to put

922
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:39,440
first month rent a month of security

923
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:42,320
the utility companies that give you

924
00:33:48,230 --> 00:33:44,240
water and lights and

925
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:48,240
electricity and of course cable

926
00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:51,600
when you look at that bill it is huge

927
00:33:58,149 --> 00:33:54,960
for somebody just getting off the ground

928
00:34:01,110 --> 00:33:58,159
now we know for the same

929
00:34:02,149 --> 00:34:01,120
work you take two people one white one

930
00:34:05,190 --> 00:34:02,159
black

931
00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:05,200
and we could put in different racial

932
00:34:08,389 --> 00:34:07,120
ethnic groups but i'll just keep it

933
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:08,399
white and black

934
00:34:14,069 --> 00:34:11,679
we know for the same job it's clear even

935
00:34:16,069 --> 00:34:14,079
in our business in academe

936
00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:16,079
the white person is going to be paid

937
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:17,599
more

938
00:34:21,589 --> 00:34:19,520
and so you ask the question why why is

939
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:21,599
that what is the tax that's being levied

940
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:22,399
here

941
00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:24,639
why are we paying the white person more

942
00:34:28,310 --> 00:34:26,159
and you know

943
00:34:30,069 --> 00:34:28,320
it depends on who you're talking to and

944
00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:30,079
where this is taking place

945
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:31,760
but you'll get this well that's just the

946
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:33,200
way it is

947
00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:36,399
so something is happening right from the

948
00:34:40,550 --> 00:34:37,359
jump

949
00:34:42,550 --> 00:34:40,560
so now these persons who are starting

950
00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:42,560
off making their way into the world

951
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:44,560
there's various handicaps there's a

952
00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:45,599
price

953
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:48,720
to be paid for being black later on you

954
00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:50,560
might want to buy a house

955
00:34:56,389 --> 00:34:54,000
now you have to have 20 30

956
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:56,399
for the down payment you got to do this

957
00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:57,200
through the bank

958
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:59,280
most people don't have that kind of

959
00:35:01,670 --> 00:35:00,880
money where they can just go and buy a

960
00:35:03,589 --> 00:35:01,680
house

961
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:03,599
the bank's going to ask you all kinds of

962
00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:06,240
credit and a lot of those questions

963
00:35:11,349 --> 00:35:09,520
are tied up in history well for sure i

964
00:35:13,589 --> 00:35:11,359
mean i think that

965
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:13,599
let's just stick with the example of

966
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:15,359
buying a house because i think it's one

967
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:16,480
of the most

968
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:18,480
it's the most important thing that we do

969
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:19,680
it's also one of the

970
00:35:26,470 --> 00:35:23,440
most illustrative of the kind of deep

971
00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:26,480
the inequalities that started hundreds

972
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:28,400
of years ago right so

973
00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:32,240
if we just go back hundreds of years um

974
00:35:35,589 --> 00:35:33,760
white people could buy property

975
00:35:37,589 --> 00:35:35,599
including other people

976
00:35:38,710 --> 00:35:37,599
and they could use that property to

977
00:35:41,349 --> 00:35:38,720
leverage

978
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:41,359
more property and more loans right so we

979
00:35:46,790 --> 00:35:43,680
talk about examples like

980
00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:46,800
john brown who founded brown university

981
00:35:51,109 --> 00:35:49,119
was a ship builder and he also owned

982
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:51,119
people he was a slave holder

983
00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:54,640
and he could not only use those enslaved

984
00:35:57,430 --> 00:35:56,480
people to build the ships for free but

985
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:57,440
he could also

986
00:36:02,710 --> 00:36:00,320
use those enslaved people as collateral

987
00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:02,720
to get more loans to build his business

988
00:36:07,589 --> 00:36:05,520
so now john brown and he did and john

989
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:07,599
brown is super wealthy right and john

990
00:36:11,109 --> 00:36:09,119
brown was probably

991
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:11,119
very smart and he probably worked really

992
00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:13,200
hard but part of the way that he amassed

993
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:14,960
all that wealth was by owning other

994
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:17,119
people who couldn't in turn own anything

995
00:36:21,190 --> 00:36:18,240
at all right

996
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:21,200
and all of that wealth the part that he

997
00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:22,480
holds on to

998
00:36:25,470 --> 00:36:24,000
which we all try to hold on to some

999
00:36:27,589 --> 00:36:25,480
right gets passed down

1000
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:27,599
intergenerationally and so when we think

1001
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:29,760
about the fact that

1002
00:36:33,190 --> 00:36:32,480
you know even low-income poor white

1003
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:33,200
people

1004
00:36:37,030 --> 00:36:35,200
still have 10 times more wealth than

1005
00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:37,040
low-income poor black people

1006
00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:39,760
the linchpin to most of that is owning a

1007
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:40,240
home

1008
00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:45,839
a double-wide trailer in a rural

1009
00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:48,320
community that's isolated and poor

1010
00:36:51,670 --> 00:36:50,160
there's still some equity in that that

1011
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:51,680
can be leveraged

1012
00:36:55,109 --> 00:36:54,720
to pay some college tuition or help a

1013
00:36:57,670 --> 00:36:55,119
kid

1014
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:57,680
buy their own home or pay bail when you

1015
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:59,680
get arrested and when we begin to

1016
00:37:03,670 --> 00:37:00,880
disentangle

1017
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:03,680
all of that it doesn't mean that poor

1018
00:37:07,589 --> 00:37:05,520
white people aren't disadvantaged

1019
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:07,599
this is where the race in class comes

1020
00:37:11,589 --> 00:37:08,960
together right

1021
00:37:13,109 --> 00:37:11,599
let me add here fast forward from back

1022
00:37:16,550 --> 00:37:13,119
then to now

1023
00:37:19,430 --> 00:37:16,560
2019 news day

1024
00:37:21,109 --> 00:37:19,440
i don't know if newsday is circulated as

1025
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:21,119
far as san diego

1026
00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:24,320
but newsday is a long island new york

1027
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:29,040
newspaper newsday did the classic

1028
00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:32,400
experiment using testers

1029
00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:34,560
to see if the housing market in long

1030
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:36,400
island new york was open

1031
00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:39,440
to everybody and guess what that test

1032
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:42,480
is so people have been doing it since

1033
00:37:50,069 --> 00:37:46,320
the passage of the 1964 civil rights act

1034
00:37:52,470 --> 00:37:50,079
newsday sent testers out a white family

1035
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:52,480
a black family that kind of thing and

1036
00:37:57,109 --> 00:37:54,240
they came back

1037
00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:57,119
really really shocked at least they were

1038
00:38:02,310 --> 00:37:58,960
shocked i wasn't shocked

1039
00:38:02,950 --> 00:38:02,320
they came back shocked that the housing

1040
00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:02,960
market

1041
00:38:10,710 --> 00:38:06,640
is as segregated and covenant

1042
00:38:13,910 --> 00:38:10,720
as it was back in the 1940s 50s and 60s

1043
00:38:16,390 --> 00:38:13,920
this is 2019 experiment so

1044
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:16,400
you can see where some people are locked

1045
00:38:18,950 --> 00:38:18,160
out of the market or they're sent to

1046
00:38:22,630 --> 00:38:18,960
certain

1047
00:38:23,829 --> 00:38:22,640
sub-markets zip codes where the houses

1048
00:38:25,589 --> 00:38:23,839
are gonna

1049
00:38:27,109 --> 00:38:25,599
definitely go underwater they're

1050
00:38:29,470 --> 00:38:27,119
overpriced

1051
00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:29,480
and all that stuff is being done

1052
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:31,599
systematically

1053
00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:33,680
it's incredible it's absolutely

1054
00:38:37,270 --> 00:38:34,960
incredible

1055
00:38:38,710 --> 00:38:37,280
and i don't think i mean i'm sure whites

1056
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:38,720
get charged

1057
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:40,880
overpriced for houses overpriced for

1058
00:38:46,310 --> 00:38:42,560
cars but in

1059
00:38:48,710 --> 00:38:46,320
many of these research experiments it's

1060
00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:48,720
non-white who get the short end of this

1061
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:49,920
stick

1062
00:38:54,069 --> 00:38:53,040
yes i understand and to me one of the

1063
00:38:56,310 --> 00:38:54,079
major problems

1064
00:38:57,430 --> 00:38:56,320
is that poor white people have been

1065
00:38:59,589 --> 00:38:57,440
conditioned to

1066
00:39:01,349 --> 00:38:59,599
identify more with the rockefellers or

1067
00:39:03,430 --> 00:39:01,359
the morgans than their fellow

1068
00:39:05,829 --> 00:39:03,440
struggling black counterparts and by the

1069
00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:05,839
same token

1070
00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:08,720
and wait we have an ideology in this

1071
00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:10,320
country that says if you're white you're

1072
00:39:13,829 --> 00:39:11,200
better than

1073
00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:13,839
everybody else now people say oh no you

1074
00:39:17,990 --> 00:39:15,839
know we're all equine that

1075
00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:18,000
with this covet and all this mess that's

1076
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,599
going on with covert

1077
00:39:23,829 --> 00:39:21,359
and telling people whether we should

1078
00:39:26,390 --> 00:39:23,839
send our kids back to school tonight

1079
00:39:27,430 --> 00:39:26,400
there is now front page stories this

1080
00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:27,440
week

1081
00:39:33,910 --> 00:39:30,560
where white parents are coming into

1082
00:39:35,910 --> 00:39:33,920
quote-unquote pods

1083
00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:35,920
so that their kids can be taught by

1084
00:39:42,310 --> 00:39:39,040
private tutors quote-unquote teachers

1085
00:39:45,430 --> 00:39:42,320
and have made it clear

1086
00:39:49,750 --> 00:39:45,440
that essential workers

1087
00:39:53,589 --> 00:39:49,760
that's a code word essential workers

1088
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:53,599
kids will not be allowed into their pods

1089
00:39:57,910 --> 00:39:56,560
you hear me now these are the people who

1090
00:40:01,430 --> 00:39:57,920
brought you that pizza

1091
00:40:02,950 --> 00:40:01,440
that you needed that chinese meal for

1092
00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:02,960
your family because you didn't want to

1093
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:05,040
get covered these are the people who did

1094
00:40:09,510 --> 00:40:05,760
that

1095
00:40:13,109 --> 00:40:09,520
essential workers but now their kids

1096
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:13,119
will not be allowed into these

1097
00:40:17,829 --> 00:40:15,599
pod circles that are growing up all over

1098
00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:17,839
the country especially in suburbs

1099
00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:19,520
i don't know if it's reached california

1100
00:40:22,950 --> 00:40:21,280
yet but it's definitely here on the east

1101
00:40:25,990 --> 00:40:22,960
coast

1102
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:26,000
and this is where the legacy

1103
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:29,200
of all these other systems

1104
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:32,400
like chattel slavery i mean think how

1105
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:32,960
deep it

1106
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:36,240
is that i have to tell you

1107
00:40:40,390 --> 00:40:38,480
that the third president of the united

1108
00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:40,400
states owned people

1109
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,440
not all of them did well he did because

1110
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:45,359
he's more famous than so many others

1111
00:40:50,309 --> 00:40:46,400
george washington

1112
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:50,319
jefferson was unfreaking believable

1113
00:40:56,309 --> 00:40:53,760
he owned people he reneged on promises

1114
00:40:59,430 --> 00:40:56,319
that he made to that woman he raped

1115
00:41:02,630 --> 00:40:59,440
and gave four or five kids with

1116
00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:02,640
and yet you lay that out in class and i

1117
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:04,800
can tell you the dean

1118
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:08,640
or somebody else will be calling you up

1119
00:41:11,670 --> 00:41:11,200
because you can't lay out that kind of

1120
00:41:15,430 --> 00:41:11,680
truth

1121
00:41:18,829 --> 00:41:15,440
of stuff that we

1122
00:41:20,950 --> 00:41:18,839
like to talk about around here the raw

1123
00:41:23,030 --> 00:41:20,960
stuff

1124
00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:23,040
so something i also just sort of learned

1125
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:25,119
about in recent years is that there are

1126
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:27,359
unknown aspects of history where black

1127
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:29,040
communities did thrive

1128
00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:31,040
they used to call washington dc

1129
00:41:35,109 --> 00:41:32,960
chocolate city there was a thriving

1130
00:41:36,790 --> 00:41:35,119
black community in new york that the

1131
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:36,800
elite leveled so they could have

1132
00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:39,280
central park seneca village and there

1133
00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:41,200
was a black wall street in tulsa

1134
00:41:44,230 --> 00:41:43,520
oklahoma which was dismantled after the

1135
00:41:46,309 --> 00:41:44,240
tulsa

1136
00:41:48,790 --> 00:41:46,319
race massacre what can be said about

1137
00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:48,800
these situations where black communities

1138
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:49,280
did

1139
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:51,040
quote unquote pull themselves up by

1140
00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:52,800
their bootstraps so to speak

1141
00:41:56,950 --> 00:41:55,200
only to be kicked back down to the

1142
00:41:58,230 --> 00:41:56,960
bottom rung of the ladder for those

1143
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:58,240
people who say why can't they get it

1144
00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:59,119
together

1145
00:42:02,550 --> 00:42:00,960
slavery was a long time ago well here

1146
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:02,560
are some examples where they

1147
00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:05,040
they did and then it was like nope gotta

1148
00:42:08,550 --> 00:42:06,880
knock you back down

1149
00:42:09,990 --> 00:42:08,560
no i mean i think those are such great

1150
00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:10,000
examples and i think

1151
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:12,400
in many ways the whole argument of the

1152
00:42:18,309 --> 00:42:14,800
book policing black bodies

1153
00:42:19,349 --> 00:42:18,319
is about understanding that the criminal

1154
00:42:22,309 --> 00:42:19,359
justice system

1155
00:42:24,309 --> 00:42:22,319
is just the latest tool to use your

1156
00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:24,319
words to knock black people down

1157
00:42:30,069 --> 00:42:27,119
to keep them from forward progress you

1158
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:30,079
know if you look at

1159
00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:32,640
and you mentioned several examples of

1160
00:42:39,109 --> 00:42:35,040
these historical facts

1161
00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:39,119
whether it's the black codes or jim crow

1162
00:42:43,109 --> 00:42:41,520
those systems came in place when

1163
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:43,119
suddenly black people were starting to

1164
00:42:46,790 --> 00:42:44,800
get more freedom right so the first is

1165
00:42:49,589 --> 00:42:46,800
emancipation so suddenly

1166
00:42:50,470 --> 00:42:49,599
you have four million black people who

1167
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:50,480
are free

1168
00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:53,440
that's pretty scary to white people who

1169
00:42:58,550 --> 00:42:55,200
were like oh my gosh right

1170
00:42:59,829 --> 00:42:58,560
what's gonna happen and not only afraid

1171
00:43:01,670 --> 00:42:59,839
physically but i think

1172
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:01,680
fairly they were afraid they knew that

1173
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:03,280
black people were hard workers because

1174
00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:04,960
they'd been extracting their labor for

1175
00:43:09,270 --> 00:43:06,560
hundreds of years right

1176
00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:09,280
and so they were afraid like wow if they

1177
00:43:11,670 --> 00:43:10,480
get a little bit of freedom what's going

1178
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:11,680
to happen to me what's going to happen

1179
00:43:13,829 --> 00:43:12,000
next

1180
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:13,839
and i think that that was especially

1181
00:43:17,430 --> 00:43:15,119
profound

1182
00:43:18,790 --> 00:43:17,440
to go back to your earlier point the

1183
00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:18,800
people the most afraid of

1184
00:43:23,510 --> 00:43:20,960
that were low-income whites right who

1185
00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:23,520
were also on the economic margins and so

1186
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:26,560
the landed whites the plantation owners

1187
00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:29,119
co-opted low-income white people many of

1188
00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:30,720
whom were also sharecroppers

1189
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:34,400
quite frankly into a race war right yes

1190
00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:36,720
a collusion against black people and

1191
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:37,440
once that

1192
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:40,560
happens it's sort of never been able to

1193
00:43:43,349 --> 00:43:40,880
be

1194
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:43,359
disconnected so you know you move

1195
00:43:47,190 --> 00:43:45,359
forward and at that point you start

1196
00:43:48,870 --> 00:43:47,200
arresting black people for loitering so

1197
00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:48,880
you can put them in a plantation prison

1198
00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:51,280
so they can continue to pick cotton

1199
00:43:55,829 --> 00:43:54,240
that sort of plantation economy begins

1200
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:55,839
to wear itself out a little bit

1201
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:58,319
as industrialization moves forward and

1202
00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:00,400
then you have the system of jim crow

1203
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:02,880
which frankly cost poor white people a

1204
00:44:05,109 --> 00:44:04,240
heck of a lot of money because

1205
00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:05,119
duplicating

1206
00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:08,000
every single institution even if it was

1207
00:44:20,309 --> 00:44:08,560
a

1208
00:44:23,349 --> 00:44:20,319
else

1209
00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:23,359
two movies but white people buy

1210
00:44:29,510 --> 00:44:26,400
into that as a way of sort of

1211
00:44:32,309 --> 00:44:29,520
marking and declaring their whiteness

1212
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:32,319
you move forward and you know as we

1213
00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:33,520
argue in the book

1214
00:44:37,349 --> 00:44:35,440
the modern day criminal justice system

1215
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:37,359
doesn't look anything like the criminal

1216
00:44:42,150 --> 00:44:39,440
justice system of 100 years ago

1217
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:42,160
because jim crow kept black people for

1218
00:44:45,349 --> 00:44:43,440
the most part and you had some great

1219
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:45,359
examples of black successes but

1220
00:44:49,589 --> 00:44:47,440
for the most part kept black people from

1221
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:49,599
accessing the american dream

1222
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:52,000
once the jim crow structure begins to

1223
00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:53,280
fall apart

1224
00:44:57,109 --> 00:44:55,119
something else comes into place and what

1225
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:57,119
is it it's the criminal justice system

1226
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:58,160
right so

1227
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:01,359
it's sort of at every single turn

1228
00:45:04,790 --> 00:45:03,760
where black people begin to get some

1229
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:04,800
power

1230
00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:07,920
the white you know supremacist

1231
00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:11,760
structure figures out a different way

1232
00:45:16,150 --> 00:45:15,839
look the modern example right now today

1233
00:45:19,510 --> 00:45:16,160
is

1234
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:19,520
voter suppression okay

1235
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:22,480
you have to make a law to allow people

1236
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:24,160
to do something that we all

1237
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:26,480
stand up in the first grade with you

1238
00:45:30,069 --> 00:45:28,560
know salute the flag and we're very

1239
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:30,079
happy because

1240
00:45:35,910 --> 00:45:33,280
as citizens you can at least vote

1241
00:45:36,470 --> 00:45:35,920
regardless of your color blah blah blah

1242
00:45:39,030 --> 00:45:36,480
well

1243
00:45:40,550 --> 00:45:39,040
guess what doesn't work that way so you

1244
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:40,560
fast forward today

1245
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:43,680
and you have redistricting

1246
00:45:48,309 --> 00:45:46,160
gerrymandering gerrymandering you tell

1247
00:45:50,870 --> 00:45:48,319
people to go to the firehouse

1248
00:45:51,670 --> 00:45:50,880
it's gonna be open until nine o'clock to

1249
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:51,680
vote

1250
00:45:55,109 --> 00:45:53,760
and the place is closed when they get

1251
00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:55,119
there

1252
00:46:01,990 --> 00:45:58,160
you got all that kind of crap going on

1253
00:46:05,349 --> 00:46:02,000
even with congress

1254
00:46:08,910 --> 00:46:05,359
fooling with the voting rights act

1255
00:46:11,990 --> 00:46:08,920
in 2020 so it is

1256
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:12,000
unbelievable that these other kinds of

1257
00:46:15,750 --> 00:46:12,960
systems

1258
00:46:17,510 --> 00:46:15,760
are in place and if you're white and

1259
00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:17,520
this is a part of the discussion now

1260
00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:18,800
since the murder of

1261
00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:21,119
george floyd if you're white you never

1262
00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:23,119
had to think about those things

1263
00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:26,240
you never had to actually deeply

1264
00:46:29,349 --> 00:46:28,720
think about where am i going to go to

1265
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:29,359
shop

1266
00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:31,760
when we don't have grocery stores in

1267
00:46:36,069 --> 00:46:33,040
these communities

1268
00:46:37,990 --> 00:46:36,079
in cities like chicago not in deep

1269
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:38,000
rural mississippi even though they don't

1270
00:46:41,910 --> 00:46:39,280
have them there either

1271
00:46:42,870 --> 00:46:41,920
in the delta area where we did some

1272
00:46:45,750 --> 00:46:42,880
research

1273
00:46:47,190 --> 00:46:45,760
but in big cities like chicago you go

1274
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:47,200
into new york

1275
00:46:52,470 --> 00:46:50,640
harlem is fashionable right now

1276
00:46:53,910 --> 00:46:52,480
i'm sure you've heard of harlem yeah of

1277
00:46:56,710 --> 00:46:53,920
course holland

1278
00:46:57,270 --> 00:46:56,720
parliament where you know blacks were

1279
00:46:59,589 --> 00:46:57,280
like

1280
00:47:00,309 --> 00:46:59,599
tulsa and some of these other places

1281
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:00,319
right now

1282
00:47:03,910 --> 00:47:02,640
the gentrification movement in harlem is

1283
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:03,920
unbelievable

1284
00:47:07,270 --> 00:47:05,680
similar to what happened with the

1285
00:47:10,390 --> 00:47:07,280
building of central park

1286
00:47:11,109 --> 00:47:10,400
people are being moved out whites and

1287
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:11,119
others

1288
00:47:16,390 --> 00:47:14,480
but people with money are moving in

1289
00:47:18,150 --> 00:47:16,400
they're taking these old brownstones

1290
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:18,160
they're fixing them up the places look

1291
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:21,520
fabulous and all this just

1292
00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:25,920
keeps pushing a good sector

1293
00:47:30,390 --> 00:47:29,040
of the black population further and

1294
00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:30,400
further someplace else

1295
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:32,880
in fact i'm not even sure where pushing

1296
00:47:36,790 --> 00:47:33,920
where

1297
00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:36,800
and it's deadly it's absolutely deadly

1298
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:37,760
but i want to go back to a point you

1299
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:39,359
made a minute ago about voting because

1300
00:47:43,589 --> 00:47:40,720
one of the things we talk about in the

1301
00:47:45,829 --> 00:47:43,599
book is felony disenfranchisement

1302
00:47:47,349 --> 00:47:45,839
and you know i don't know why whoever

1303
00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:47,359
thought up the idea that people with a

1304
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:49,520
felony shouldn't be able to vote

1305
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:51,599
but it's quite curious that felony

1306
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:53,359
disenfranchisement becomes super

1307
00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:54,000
important

1308
00:47:58,309 --> 00:47:56,000
after the passage of the voting rights

1309
00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:58,319
act right so it's after that that you

1310
00:48:02,790 --> 00:47:59,359
start to

1311
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:02,800
felonize possession of pretty low level

1312
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:03,839
drugs

1313
00:48:07,430 --> 00:48:05,680
that black people use and pretty soon

1314
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:07,440
you have huge swaths of the black

1315
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:08,160
community

1316
00:48:13,030 --> 00:48:10,000
that have now do no longer have the

1317
00:48:16,069 --> 00:48:13,040
right to vote right just 30 or 40 years

1318
00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:16,079
after they got the right to vote

1319
00:48:20,069 --> 00:48:19,200
i don't think you can underestimate or

1320
00:48:22,230 --> 00:48:20,079
overestimate

1321
00:48:23,670 --> 00:48:22,240
i mean how important that is right it's

1322
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:23,680
another tool

1323
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:26,559
for keeping black people out of any

1324
00:48:29,829 --> 00:48:28,240
position of power i mean we talk about

1325
00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:29,839
in the book i talk about it in classes

1326
00:48:32,870 --> 00:48:31,040
all the time

1327
00:48:34,549 --> 00:48:32,880
forget about voting for the president

1328
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:34,559
and there's some excellent work

1329
00:48:39,349 --> 00:48:37,200
about various presidential elections and

1330
00:48:41,510 --> 00:48:39,359
the role that voter disenfranchisement

1331
00:48:44,109 --> 00:48:41,520
played in that but when you

1332
00:48:45,990 --> 00:48:44,119
disenfranchise black people

1333
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:46,000
disproportionately low income black

1334
00:48:51,270 --> 00:48:48,960
people that means in a precinct or

1335
00:48:52,710 --> 00:48:51,280
jurisdiction very few people in that

1336
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:52,720
community are going to be able to pick

1337
00:49:02,950 --> 00:48:53,040
the

1338
00:49:04,790 --> 00:49:02,960
daily life

1339
00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:04,800
they're locked out of the political

1340
00:49:09,190 --> 00:49:06,800
apparatus

1341
00:49:11,190 --> 00:49:09,200
which contributes to you know the

1342
00:49:13,349 --> 00:49:11,200
devastation in those communities

1343
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:13,359
and then you make examples out of

1344
00:49:16,309 --> 00:49:14,720
individuals

1345
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:16,319
we generally don't talk about

1346
00:49:20,549 --> 00:49:18,000
individuals but

1347
00:49:23,109 --> 00:49:20,559
you make examples out of individuals and

1348
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:23,119
i'll give you two of these examples

1349
00:49:26,470 --> 00:49:24,880
there's a black woman she's probably in

1350
00:49:29,910 --> 00:49:26,480
her upper 30s

1351
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:29,920
she got out of prison she had no idea

1352
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:31,200
how all these

1353
00:49:36,710 --> 00:49:34,319
laws work and she went and voted

1354
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:36,720
do you remember that yeah and she's been

1355
00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:38,480
given a prison sentence

1356
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:40,559
for voting she said she just didn't

1357
00:49:45,589 --> 00:49:42,319
understand the laws

1358
00:49:47,430 --> 00:49:45,599
then when you go back to the school to

1359
00:49:49,829 --> 00:49:47,440
prison pipeline

1360
00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:49,839
there's the headlines passing around

1361
00:49:53,589 --> 00:49:51,040
this week

1362
00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:53,599
of a young african-american female

1363
00:49:58,230 --> 00:49:54,480
student

1364
00:50:00,870 --> 00:49:58,240
who didn't do her online homework

1365
00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:00,880
virtual class she didn't do the homework

1366
00:50:06,230 --> 00:50:03,119
she's been incarcerated

1367
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:06,240
what in a juvenile there you go so now

1368
00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:08,240
we're not doing the homework we've

1369
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:10,000
criminalized voting

1370
00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:13,200
what's the charge oh probably truancy or

1371
00:50:15,750 --> 00:50:14,640
something like that yeah i can't i'd

1372
00:50:19,190 --> 00:50:15,760
have to look it up

1373
00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:19,200
geez but this is in the news this week

1374
00:50:22,309 --> 00:50:20,800
well you guys are making a lot of

1375
00:50:24,309 --> 00:50:22,319
excellent points and

1376
00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:24,319
angie i do really like that point that

1377
00:50:29,109 --> 00:50:26,480
the dirty secret is that the

1378
00:50:30,790 --> 00:50:29,119
people in the one percent have used poor

1379
00:50:33,030 --> 00:50:30,800
white people to focus

1380
00:50:34,150 --> 00:50:33,040
down on black communities instead of

1381
00:50:36,230 --> 00:50:34,160
focusing up

1382
00:50:38,549 --> 00:50:36,240
on the one percent that has half the

1383
00:50:40,309 --> 00:50:38,559
wealth of the entire nation

1384
00:50:42,309 --> 00:50:40,319
and it keeps us fighting amongst

1385
00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:42,319
ourselves and allows them to keep

1386
00:50:45,829 --> 00:50:43,280
running the show

1387
00:50:47,589 --> 00:50:45,839
i think that is an important aspect and

1388
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:47,599
yes prisons are also

1389
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:50,880
such cesspools because they have no

1390
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:52,800
advocates if an ex-con

1391
00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:55,280
cannot vote cannot make any decisions

1392
00:50:58,150 --> 00:50:57,119
about the state of prisons then people

1393
00:51:02,069 --> 00:50:58,160
just ignore them

1394
00:51:03,510 --> 00:51:02,079
and then their labor and rape factories

1395
00:51:04,950 --> 00:51:03,520
really it's it's really cruel and

1396
00:51:06,950 --> 00:51:04,960
unusual punishment that

1397
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:06,960
it's common knowledge that if you go to

1398
00:51:09,589 --> 00:51:08,000
prison well good luck

1399
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:09,599
getting raped hope you like being raped

1400
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:11,200
like that's messed up

1401
00:51:15,190 --> 00:51:13,680
and it's because no one's advocating for

1402
00:51:16,549 --> 00:51:15,200
the prison population but another thing

1403
00:51:17,750 --> 00:51:16,559
i wanted to try to fit in here was

1404
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:17,760
prison labor

1405
00:51:22,549 --> 00:51:21,200
but it gets pretty gross when you

1406
00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:22,559
examine the details

1407
00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:24,960
you write about plantation prisons that

1408
00:51:28,790 --> 00:51:26,640
popped up after the civil war

1409
00:51:30,150 --> 00:51:28,800
that even in the 13th amendment it has a

1410
00:51:32,630 --> 00:51:30,160
loophole where it says

1411
00:51:33,510 --> 00:51:32,640
we're abolishing slavery and involuntary

1412
00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:33,520
servitude

1413
00:51:36,870 --> 00:51:36,000
except as a punishment for a crime so

1414
00:51:39,270 --> 00:51:36,880
what do they do

1415
00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:39,280
to quote your book there were laws that

1416
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:41,520
allowed the police to arrest black men

1417
00:51:46,230 --> 00:51:44,000
for status offenses like loitering and

1418
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:46,240
incarcerate them specifically at

1419
00:51:50,309 --> 00:51:47,680
plantation prisons

1420
00:51:52,309 --> 00:51:50,319
during planting and harvesting seasons

1421
00:51:54,230 --> 00:51:52,319
when the demand for this free black

1422
00:51:55,750 --> 00:51:54,240
labor increased dramatically

1423
00:51:57,589 --> 00:51:55,760
these same men were released

1424
00:51:59,190 --> 00:51:57,599
conveniently after the planting or

1425
00:52:01,670 --> 00:51:59,200
harvesting season ended

1426
00:52:03,589 --> 00:52:01,680
their labor extracted at no cost because

1427
00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:03,599
the state no longer wanted to pay to

1428
00:52:06,230 --> 00:52:04,000
house

1429
00:52:07,349 --> 00:52:06,240
and feed them and that is just one

1430
00:52:09,670 --> 00:52:07,359
aspect but

1431
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:09,680
can you talk to us about how this soft

1432
00:52:13,589 --> 00:52:11,280
slavery continued

1433
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:13,599
well on after the civil war and prison

1434
00:52:20,069 --> 00:52:16,079
labor is still going on today

1435
00:52:23,670 --> 00:52:20,079
well we have a beautiful example here

1436
00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:23,680
we put together a course we taught at a

1437
00:52:27,910 --> 00:52:24,720
very

1438
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:27,920
private elite

1439
00:52:33,990 --> 00:52:31,119
liberal arts college for a long time and

1440
00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:34,000
we put together a course

1441
00:52:40,309 --> 00:52:37,200
in the summer specifically to

1442
00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:40,319
fight the notion that

1443
00:52:44,790 --> 00:52:43,520
students need to go overseas study

1444
00:52:47,829 --> 00:52:44,800
abroad

1445
00:52:49,510 --> 00:52:47,839
to learn something about culture

1446
00:52:50,870 --> 00:52:49,520
and we put together a course saying you

1447
00:52:52,470 --> 00:52:50,880
know darn it

1448
00:52:55,030 --> 00:52:52,480
you need to learn something about what's

1449
00:52:57,670 --> 00:52:55,040
going on in the united states

1450
00:52:58,069 --> 00:52:57,680
and so we put together this course

1451
00:53:01,190 --> 00:52:58,079
called

1452
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:01,200
social stratification in the south and

1453
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:02,640
people can google it

1454
00:53:07,589 --> 00:53:05,440
and they'll see social stratification in

1455
00:53:09,750 --> 00:53:07,599
the deep south

1456
00:53:11,910 --> 00:53:09,760
if they google it you'll see articles

1457
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:11,920
written about the courses the unique

1458
00:53:17,109 --> 00:53:15,119
course with full credit

1459
00:53:18,549 --> 00:53:17,119
for the students who took the course we

1460
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,559
got on a bus

1461
00:53:22,230 --> 00:53:20,559
and we went into the deep south we had

1462
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:22,240
white students black students puerto

1463
00:53:26,069 --> 00:53:23,040
rican student

1464
00:53:29,349 --> 00:53:26,079
chinese student a real

1465
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:29,359
mix of students men and women

1466
00:53:33,270 --> 00:53:32,400
and i'm gonna tell you something when

1467
00:53:37,349 --> 00:53:33,280
you hit

1468
00:53:40,790 --> 00:53:37,359
deep into louisiana mississippi

1469
00:53:43,990 --> 00:53:40,800
with that kind of a crowd you

1470
00:53:46,950 --> 00:53:44,000
attract attention so

1471
00:53:47,750 --> 00:53:46,960
we've taught this course like four times

1472
00:53:51,109 --> 00:53:47,760
but

1473
00:53:54,790 --> 00:53:51,119
the point is one part of that course

1474
00:53:59,109 --> 00:53:54,800
was to look at plantation prisons

1475
00:54:02,950 --> 00:53:59,119
and we ended up with a real neat

1476
00:54:06,549 --> 00:54:02,960
experience at parchman penitentiary

1477
00:54:10,230 --> 00:54:06,559
in the mississippi delta

1478
00:54:11,829 --> 00:54:10,240
and parchment is it's like 50 miles by

1479
00:54:14,950 --> 00:54:11,839
50 miles

1480
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:14,960
unbelievable just unbelievable

1481
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:18,960
prison farms and over the course of the

1482
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:20,800
four times we taught it

1483
00:54:28,150 --> 00:54:24,720
every other year they moved into the

1484
00:54:30,470 --> 00:54:28,160
business of catfish farms

1485
00:54:32,870 --> 00:54:30,480
and if you know catfish farms were

1486
00:54:35,109 --> 00:54:32,880
lucrative throughout mississippi

1487
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:35,119
and once the prison took up catfish

1488
00:54:38,309 --> 00:54:36,079
farming

1489
00:54:39,190 --> 00:54:38,319
and we write about this in a paper we

1490
00:54:42,710 --> 00:54:39,200
published

1491
00:54:45,030 --> 00:54:42,720
the private businesses went under

1492
00:54:46,549 --> 00:54:45,040
because they couldn't compete with free

1493
00:54:48,870 --> 00:54:46,559
labor

1494
00:54:50,870 --> 00:54:48,880
in walking around the town that

1495
00:54:54,150 --> 00:54:50,880
surrounds the prison

1496
00:54:56,710 --> 00:54:54,160
uh we could see prisoners in

1497
00:54:58,950 --> 00:54:56,720
striped uniforms the various uniforms

1498
00:55:02,309 --> 00:54:58,960
that said something about their status

1499
00:55:05,589 --> 00:55:02,319
we could see prisoners working in town

1500
00:55:08,950 --> 00:55:05,599
doing everything from cutting grass to

1501
00:55:10,950 --> 00:55:08,960
carpentry painting

1502
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:10,960
in these little towns surrounding the

1503
00:55:19,829 --> 00:55:12,400
prison

1504
00:55:21,349 --> 00:55:19,839
so i want to give a couple of other

1505
00:55:24,390 --> 00:55:21,359
examples that i think are really

1506
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:24,400
important for your listeners

1507
00:55:28,710 --> 00:55:26,720
we actually have no problem with inmates

1508
00:55:31,990 --> 00:55:28,720
working i think that inmate

1509
00:55:33,349 --> 00:55:32,000
work as opposed to labor is really

1510
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:33,359
important

1511
00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:35,599
you know we've spent time in prisons

1512
00:55:37,510 --> 00:55:37,119
something that's not in the book but our

1513
00:55:39,589 --> 00:55:37,520
next

1514
00:55:41,190 --> 00:55:39,599
upcoming book which we'd love to talk to

1515
00:55:42,470 --> 00:55:41,200
you about you know when it finally comes

1516
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:42,480
out in another year or two

1517
00:55:46,870 --> 00:55:45,599
is on solitary confinement and we spent

1518
00:55:48,870 --> 00:55:46,880
three summers doing

1519
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,880
interviews and ethnography and solitary

1520
00:55:52,150 --> 00:55:50,319
literally we were in solitary

1521
00:55:53,670 --> 00:55:52,160
confinement units in a state prison

1522
00:55:55,270 --> 00:55:53,680
system

1523
00:55:57,430 --> 00:55:55,280
we're in favor of inmates having

1524
00:55:58,230 --> 00:55:57,440
opportunities to work many of them want

1525
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:58,240
to work

1526
00:56:02,789 --> 00:56:00,880
it gives you something to do you can

1527
00:56:04,789 --> 00:56:02,799
learn some skills

1528
00:56:06,309 --> 00:56:04,799
for some folks those skills will even

1529
00:56:09,670 --> 00:56:06,319
translate into a job

1530
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:09,680
after they get released certainly not at

1531
00:56:12,069 --> 00:56:11,440
parchment but in many prison systems

1532
00:56:15,270 --> 00:56:12,079
they earn

1533
00:56:17,910 --> 00:56:15,280
something you know which allows them to

1534
00:56:19,750 --> 00:56:17,920
buy some commissary items or you know

1535
00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:19,760
pay off a little bit of a finer fee

1536
00:56:26,789 --> 00:56:23,200
buy water so what we have a problem with

1537
00:56:29,829 --> 00:56:26,799
is the extraction of that labor

1538
00:56:31,589 --> 00:56:29,839
for no value so the example that

1539
00:56:33,430 --> 00:56:31,599
earl was starting to give about the

1540
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:33,440
bottled water so we know someone in a

1541
00:56:36,630 --> 00:56:35,040
prison system in new york

1542
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:36,640
who sews sweatshirts he works in a

1543
00:56:42,230 --> 00:56:39,119
sweatshirt shop and he makes 33 cents

1544
00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:42,240
an hour in the sweatshirt shop a bottle

1545
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:43,200
of water

1546
00:56:46,710 --> 00:56:45,359
in the commissary is still a dollar just

1547
00:56:49,670 --> 00:56:46,720
like it would be a

1548
00:56:50,549 --> 00:56:49,680
giant or safeway or publix or any local

1549
00:56:52,870 --> 00:56:50,559
market

1550
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:52,880
so he has to work three hours to earn

1551
00:56:57,030 --> 00:56:55,359
enough money to buy one bottle of water

1552
00:56:58,390 --> 00:56:57,040
that's what we have a problem with but

1553
00:57:00,230 --> 00:56:58,400
he has to buy the water

1554
00:57:01,430 --> 00:57:00,240
because the water and the cell is dirty

1555
00:57:03,670 --> 00:57:01,440
and gross

1556
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:03,680
right so that's what we have a problem

1557
00:57:06,390 --> 00:57:04,799
with is that

1558
00:57:09,030 --> 00:57:06,400
you know we would challenge your

1559
00:57:11,990 --> 00:57:09,040
listeners to think would i be willing to

1560
00:57:14,069 --> 00:57:12,000
at a 10 an hour job work three hours to

1561
00:57:14,950 --> 00:57:14,079
buy a thirty dollar bottle of water that

1562
00:57:18,390 --> 00:57:14,960
would be absurd

1563
00:57:19,990 --> 00:57:18,400
right the fact that and you know we

1564
00:57:20,549 --> 00:57:20,000
detail in the book and in a classroom

1565
00:57:23,750 --> 00:57:20,559
and

1566
00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:23,760
again encourage your listeners if you

1567
00:57:27,109 --> 00:57:26,160
yeah if prison industries and especially

1568
00:57:30,069 --> 00:57:27,119
the state

1569
00:57:31,589 --> 00:57:30,079
system you know we can only speak about

1570
00:57:34,150 --> 00:57:31,599
the states that we've looked at

1571
00:57:36,390 --> 00:57:34,160
but most states function this way that

1572
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:36,400
if you're a state agency you have to buy

1573
00:57:40,549 --> 00:57:38,880
furniture and cleaning supplies from the

1574
00:57:43,990 --> 00:57:40,559
local state

1575
00:57:45,829 --> 00:57:44,000
prison industry system so in virginia

1576
00:57:48,870 --> 00:57:45,839
it's called virginia correctional

1577
00:57:50,789 --> 00:57:48,880
enterprises vce for short

1578
00:57:52,470 --> 00:57:50,799
and we talk about in the book being new

1579
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:52,480
to the university and you go through

1580
00:57:54,470 --> 00:57:53,440
training about how

1581
00:57:56,789 --> 00:57:54,480
you know you have to learn to buy

1582
00:57:58,870 --> 00:57:56,799
furniture and all that stuff

1583
00:58:00,390 --> 00:57:58,880
that you would have to do in a job and

1584
00:58:02,230 --> 00:58:00,400
if you don't think about you just say oh

1585
00:58:03,990 --> 00:58:02,240
we buy the furniture from vce if you

1586
00:58:05,670 --> 00:58:04,000
don't dig underneath that you probably

1587
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:05,680
don't even realize you're buying it from

1588
00:58:08,789 --> 00:58:06,960
a prison system

1589
00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:08,799
so we decided to investigate a little

1590
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:12,079
bit of virginia correctional enterprises

1591
00:58:15,589 --> 00:58:14,480
we sat in the library at this particular

1592
00:58:17,829 --> 00:58:15,599
university

1593
00:58:19,190 --> 00:58:17,839
and opened up the catalog for furniture

1594
00:58:20,549 --> 00:58:19,200
that you can buy from virginia

1595
00:58:22,710 --> 00:58:20,559
correctional enterprises

1596
00:58:24,309 --> 00:58:22,720
and we could literally see the very

1597
00:58:26,230 --> 00:58:24,319
chairs that we were sitting in

1598
00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:26,240
and the chairs retailed for six hundred

1599
00:58:30,309 --> 00:58:28,160
dollars apiece

1600
00:58:32,069 --> 00:58:30,319
someone working in the free market

1601
00:58:33,589 --> 00:58:32,079
making furniture would make around

1602
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:33,599
between eighteen and twenty two dollars

1603
00:58:39,349 --> 00:58:37,119
an hour inmates make 54 cents an hour

1604
00:58:41,190 --> 00:58:39,359
and so they're not paid you know they

1605
00:58:42,309 --> 00:58:41,200
have to work what two hours to get a

1606
00:58:45,109 --> 00:58:42,319
bottle of water

1607
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:45,119
but the chair still retails at 600 bucks

1608
00:58:48,870 --> 00:58:45,440
right

1609
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:48,880
it's not like it retails for

1610
00:58:53,829 --> 00:58:52,240
a thousand percent less just because you

1611
00:58:56,309 --> 00:58:53,839
didn't pay the laborer

1612
00:58:57,829 --> 00:58:56,319
an equivalent wage right so you work in

1613
00:58:59,510 --> 00:58:57,839
a state organization

1614
00:59:00,789 --> 00:58:59,520
the students love these stories because

1615
00:59:01,990 --> 00:59:00,799
we go go look at your dorm room

1616
00:59:05,030 --> 00:59:02,000
furniture

1617
00:59:07,670 --> 00:59:05,040
you'll figure out that someone was paid

1618
00:59:09,910 --> 00:59:07,680
54 cents an hour to make that furniture

1619
00:59:11,270 --> 00:59:09,920
and the university had to pay the same

1620
00:59:13,990 --> 00:59:11,280
that they would pay at ikea

1621
00:59:14,630 --> 00:59:14,000
right that's what we have a problem with

1622
00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:14,640
yeah

1623
00:59:21,750 --> 00:59:18,400
industries making tons of money off

1624
00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:21,760
mostly black people's free labor right

1625
00:59:25,670 --> 00:59:24,160
right and there is an old phrase

1626
00:59:28,230 --> 00:59:25,680
something to the degree of

1627
00:59:29,910 --> 00:59:28,240
a child who doesn't feel included in the

1628
00:59:32,950 --> 00:59:29,920
village will burn it down

1629
00:59:34,789 --> 00:59:32,960
just to feel its warmth and i've always

1630
00:59:35,109 --> 00:59:34,799
liked that because it's like you have to

1631
00:59:37,990 --> 00:59:35,119
give

1632
00:59:39,030 --> 00:59:38,000
people a path you can't just ignore them

1633
00:59:41,270 --> 00:59:39,040
and give them no

1634
00:59:42,789 --> 00:59:41,280
options because for your own safety

1635
00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:42,799
that's a bad policy

1636
00:59:46,390 --> 00:59:45,119
because people need to feel like they

1637
00:59:48,470 --> 00:59:46,400
have some hope

1638
00:59:50,390 --> 00:59:48,480
or they're just gonna be willing to take

1639
00:59:51,750 --> 00:59:50,400
you out with them you know if all i have

1640
00:59:52,390 --> 00:59:51,760
is prison well i'm gonna take you out

1641
00:59:53,990 --> 00:59:52,400
with me

1642
00:59:55,430 --> 00:59:54,000
and it's like it's a real chaotic

1643
00:59:58,630 --> 00:59:55,440
situation to have

1644
01:00:01,349 --> 00:59:58,640
people who do not feel as if there's

1645
01:00:03,030 --> 01:00:01,359
any way to succeed it's like backing a

1646
01:00:05,430 --> 01:00:03,040
scared animal into a corner they're just

1647
01:00:07,109 --> 01:00:05,440
gonna lash out because why not

1648
01:00:09,109 --> 01:00:07,119
i love your description because it

1649
01:00:10,470 --> 01:00:09,119
really resonated with what we saw and

1650
01:00:11,190 --> 01:00:10,480
what we've learned about solitary

1651
01:00:14,789 --> 01:00:11,200
confinement

1652
01:00:15,829 --> 01:00:14,799
so a lot of people might be surprised or

1653
01:00:18,069 --> 01:00:15,839
grossed out

1654
01:00:19,270 --> 01:00:18,079
to know sometimes inmates in solitary

1655
01:00:22,309 --> 01:00:19,280
confinement will

1656
01:00:26,150 --> 01:00:22,319
throw their bodily fluids and stuff on

1657
01:00:28,789 --> 01:00:26,160
guards on cos and why would you do that

1658
01:00:30,470 --> 01:00:28,799
it's gross it's disgusting but when you

1659
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:30,480
think about what you just said

1660
01:00:33,589 --> 01:00:32,160
if that's the only thing they can

1661
01:00:36,549 --> 01:00:33,599
control they'll

1662
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:36,559
do it to feel some sense of control

1663
01:00:39,510 --> 01:00:37,680
right

1664
01:00:41,109 --> 01:00:39,520
yeah i think that your point is a

1665
01:00:43,270 --> 01:00:41,119
hundred percent right on and

1666
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:43,280
and if you couple this question of

1667
01:00:47,670 --> 01:00:44,240
prison labor

1668
01:00:48,789 --> 01:00:47,680
with a discussion of bail and fines and

1669
01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:48,799
fees

1670
01:00:52,390 --> 01:00:51,040
you know 20 to 30 percent of people who

1671
01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:52,400
are incarcerated today

1672
01:00:56,390 --> 01:00:54,160
are there because they can't pay bail or

1673
01:00:59,589 --> 01:00:56,400
they can't pay a finer fee

1674
01:01:00,230 --> 01:00:59,599
if you gave them a pathway by working in

1675
01:01:02,710 --> 01:01:00,240
the kitchen

1676
01:01:04,150 --> 01:01:02,720
or answering the phone for the d.o.t as

1677
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:04,160
they do in new york

1678
01:01:07,990 --> 01:01:07,040
or making a license plate or something

1679
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:08,000
to earn money

1680
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:10,880
so that they could pay off that debt i

1681
01:01:13,589 --> 01:01:12,160
would think you would probably get some

1682
01:01:16,069 --> 01:01:13,599
good work out of folks

1683
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:16,079
they would be motivated but at 30 cents

1684
01:01:19,109 --> 01:01:16,720
an hour

1685
01:01:20,390 --> 01:01:19,119
you'll never ever and that's at the high

1686
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:20,400
end of the pay scale

1687
01:01:23,750 --> 01:01:22,640
i mean a lot of people are making 10 12

1688
01:01:26,230 --> 01:01:23,760
cents an hour

1689
01:01:27,589 --> 01:01:26,240
how hard are you gonna work to get out

1690
01:01:31,109 --> 01:01:27,599
of debt

1691
01:01:32,789 --> 01:01:31,119
it's not motivating right right exactly

1692
01:01:34,710 --> 01:01:32,799
i agree with you and so we don't have a

1693
01:01:35,510 --> 01:01:34,720
ton of time left i wanted to leave some

1694
01:01:37,589 --> 01:01:35,520
space for

1695
01:01:39,670 --> 01:01:37,599
solutions of course a lot of this stuff

1696
01:01:41,750 --> 01:01:39,680
will just be hypothetical because

1697
01:01:43,190 --> 01:01:41,760
we don't really have uh the decision

1698
01:01:45,750 --> 01:01:43,200
making power

1699
01:01:47,589 --> 01:01:45,760
that we might want but this systemic

1700
01:01:49,030 --> 01:01:47,599
racial inequality has been going on in

1701
01:01:51,030 --> 01:01:49,040
america for as long as

1702
01:01:52,870 --> 01:01:51,040
we've had black and white people and

1703
01:01:53,990 --> 01:01:52,880
these poverty traps we've talked about

1704
01:01:56,150 --> 01:01:54,000
affect us all

1705
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:56,160
how do we even approach lasting

1706
01:02:01,190 --> 01:01:57,839
solutions

1707
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:01,200
without furthering the divide and this

1708
01:02:05,910 --> 01:02:03,760
is always where we end and this is where

1709
01:02:08,069 --> 01:02:05,920
you know this is where it's hard but

1710
01:02:10,069 --> 01:02:08,079
we're better at describing the problems

1711
01:02:11,510 --> 01:02:10,079
i would say there's sort of two tracks

1712
01:02:13,190 --> 01:02:11,520
one is

1713
01:02:14,789 --> 01:02:13,200
we have got to talk honestly about our

1714
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:14,799
racial history

1715
01:02:19,029 --> 01:02:16,319
and not pretend it didn't happen or

1716
01:02:20,630 --> 01:02:19,039
pretend that it ended 400 years ago

1717
01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:20,640
i think we have to be honest about that

1718
01:02:25,589 --> 01:02:23,200
and we have to look at these

1719
01:02:27,910 --> 01:02:25,599
embedded systems that allowed certain

1720
01:02:30,069 --> 01:02:27,920
people to make money and amass wealth

1721
01:02:32,309 --> 01:02:30,079
and other people not to like that's an

1722
01:02:34,150 --> 01:02:32,319
important part of the conversation

1723
01:02:36,150 --> 01:02:34,160
we can't move forward until we talk

1724
01:02:37,910 --> 01:02:36,160
about that but when it comes to the

1725
01:02:40,230 --> 01:02:37,920
criminal justice system

1726
01:02:41,829 --> 01:02:40,240
i think some things that would alleviate

1727
01:02:44,150 --> 01:02:41,839
the outcomes if not

1728
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:44,160
the you know root causes i think some of

1729
01:02:47,109 --> 01:02:45,839
the things that would alleviate some of

1730
01:02:49,430 --> 01:02:47,119
the outcomes

1731
01:02:50,789 --> 01:02:49,440
would be things like decriminalizing a

1732
01:02:53,029 --> 01:02:50,799
lot of drugs

1733
01:02:55,029 --> 01:02:53,039
that's happening we lock up about half a

1734
01:02:56,710 --> 01:02:55,039
million people a year

1735
01:02:58,710 --> 01:02:56,720
twenty percent of the prison population

1736
01:03:02,230 --> 01:02:58,720
is there for low-level drug possession

1737
01:03:04,710 --> 01:03:02,240
crazy that's crazy right so that's one

1738
01:03:06,309 --> 01:03:04,720
20 to 30 percent are in jail or prison

1739
01:03:07,829 --> 01:03:06,319
of people who are incarcerated are in

1740
01:03:08,710 --> 01:03:07,839
jail or prison because they can't pay

1741
01:03:10,789 --> 01:03:08,720
bail

1742
01:03:12,710 --> 01:03:10,799
and yet every study and we have

1743
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:12,720
colleagues doing this work every study

1744
01:03:16,390 --> 01:03:13,200
that's

1745
01:03:18,789 --> 01:03:16,400
been done suggests that like 99.9

1746
01:03:20,390 --> 01:03:18,799
of people who are charged show back up

1747
01:03:23,990 --> 01:03:20,400
when they're supposed to

1748
01:03:26,069 --> 01:03:24,000
so eliminating bail money bail for the

1749
01:03:28,309 --> 01:03:26,079
vast majority of cases i mean maybe you

1750
01:03:31,029 --> 01:03:28,319
don't send the axe murderer back out

1751
01:03:32,230 --> 01:03:31,039
on the street but you know we're locking

1752
01:03:33,029 --> 01:03:32,240
up people who've never been proven

1753
01:03:35,670 --> 01:03:33,039
guilty

1754
01:03:37,270 --> 01:03:35,680
they've never been convicted of a crime

1755
01:03:41,109 --> 01:03:37,280
we need to rethink

1756
01:03:41,589 --> 01:03:41,119
the use of police we don't go near the

1757
01:03:44,950 --> 01:03:41,599
whole

1758
01:03:47,829 --> 01:03:44,960
question of defund get rid of the police

1759
01:03:49,589 --> 01:03:47,839
but we think you need to rethink the use

1760
01:03:51,910 --> 01:03:49,599
of police we saw something the other day

1761
01:03:54,950 --> 01:03:51,920
where police were going to

1762
01:03:58,150 --> 01:03:54,960
go after people who came into the state

1763
01:03:59,829 --> 01:03:58,160
oh where is the quarantine

1764
01:04:02,309 --> 01:03:59,839
they say well you don't need police for

1765
01:04:06,470 --> 01:04:02,319
that we need to also

1766
01:04:09,510 --> 01:04:06,480
get really serious about

1767
01:04:13,910 --> 01:04:09,520
space travel

1768
01:04:18,950 --> 01:04:16,870
think about all the money that's spent

1769
01:04:22,309 --> 01:04:18,960
on space travel

1770
01:04:25,270 --> 01:04:22,319
and i don't think we can name five

1771
01:04:26,069 --> 01:04:25,280
things that we've gotten in return for

1772
01:04:28,950 --> 01:04:26,079
this

1773
01:04:30,230 --> 01:04:28,960
we need to get out of afghanistan we

1774
01:04:33,349 --> 01:04:30,240
need to stop

1775
01:04:35,270 --> 01:04:33,359
flying jets over the ball stadium

1776
01:04:37,190 --> 01:04:35,280
you know how much money it costs to put

1777
01:04:39,670 --> 01:04:37,200
five of those blue birds

1778
01:04:40,630 --> 01:04:39,680
that fly over this blue angels over the

1779
01:04:43,190 --> 01:04:40,640
stadium

1780
01:04:43,829 --> 01:04:43,200
i mean it's unbelievable the cost for

1781
01:04:46,069 --> 01:04:43,839
that

1782
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:46,079
we need to stop doing the we would get

1783
01:04:48,710 --> 01:04:47,760
out of war get out of the business of

1784
01:04:50,630 --> 01:04:48,720
war

1785
01:04:51,750 --> 01:04:50,640
you know let the afghanis go and do

1786
01:04:54,390 --> 01:04:51,760
their thing

1787
01:04:54,950 --> 01:04:54,400
we need to get out of that particular

1788
01:04:59,430 --> 01:04:54,960
business

1789
01:05:01,910 --> 01:04:59,440
yes it ruins lives men and now women

1790
01:05:03,029 --> 01:05:01,920
get tied up in that and then when they

1791
01:05:05,029 --> 01:05:03,039
get back home

1792
01:05:06,470 --> 01:05:05,039
they can't get the medical care that

1793
01:05:09,430 --> 01:05:06,480
they need

1794
01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:09,440
the va hospital is the worst hospital

1795
01:05:14,230 --> 01:05:11,200
system on the earth

1796
01:05:15,349 --> 01:05:14,240
clean all that mess up we had lunch with

1797
01:05:17,750 --> 01:05:15,359
a student

1798
01:05:19,270 --> 01:05:17,760
former student who worked at walter reed

1799
01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:19,280
hospital

1800
01:05:24,630 --> 01:05:22,400
and here's the description

1801
01:05:25,910 --> 01:05:24,640
i don't know if you pay attention to the

1802
01:05:28,069 --> 01:05:25,920
race track

1803
01:05:29,829 --> 01:05:28,079
where they run horses but not right now

1804
01:05:31,589 --> 01:05:29,839
but when they have horse races the

1805
01:05:33,829 --> 01:05:31,599
belmont and all that

1806
01:05:35,990 --> 01:05:33,839
there's something called the backtrack

1807
01:05:38,069 --> 01:05:36,000
or something like that

1808
01:05:39,270 --> 01:05:38,079
and this is where all the attendants

1809
01:05:41,190 --> 01:05:39,280
live

1810
01:05:42,390 --> 01:05:41,200
this is where all the people that clean

1811
01:05:44,309 --> 01:05:42,400
up the horse crap

1812
01:05:45,910 --> 01:05:44,319
live this is where the people who walk

1813
01:05:49,029 --> 01:05:45,920
the horses live

1814
01:05:51,990 --> 01:05:49,039
and in many of these back tracks these

1815
01:05:53,510 --> 01:05:52,000
are some of the worst slums you've ever

1816
01:05:56,710 --> 01:05:53,520
seen

1817
01:05:59,750 --> 01:05:56,720
no heat no air conditioning

1818
01:06:01,990 --> 01:05:59,760
people sleeping on cots and yet

1819
01:06:03,349 --> 01:06:02,000
when the race comes out oh my gosh

1820
01:06:07,190 --> 01:06:03,359
people got on these big

1821
01:06:10,309 --> 01:06:07,200
hats they're sipping mint juleps

1822
01:06:12,390 --> 01:06:10,319
running these horses in the ground this

1823
01:06:13,349 --> 01:06:12,400
is the kind of stuff that needs to come

1824
01:06:16,390 --> 01:06:13,359
to a halt

1825
01:06:19,670 --> 01:06:16,400
yes you know put this money

1826
01:06:22,630 --> 01:06:19,680
put all this wealth to use

1827
01:06:24,789 --> 01:06:22,640
to take care of people i mean good god

1828
01:06:26,150 --> 01:06:24,799
you couldn't give people more than 5.75

1829
01:06:27,910 --> 01:06:26,160
cents a day for food

1830
01:06:29,510 --> 01:06:27,920
in food stamps i mean what are they

1831
01:06:31,670 --> 01:06:29,520
going to do eat themselves today

1832
01:06:32,630 --> 01:06:31,680
yeah right well there's a lot of people

1833
01:06:35,829 --> 01:06:32,640
that talk about

1834
01:06:37,190 --> 01:06:35,839
food stamps itself being a kind of a

1835
01:06:39,990 --> 01:06:37,200
conspiracy to

1836
01:06:41,349 --> 01:06:40,000
support only the corporate food

1837
01:06:42,630 --> 01:06:41,359
companies because like you said the

1838
01:06:43,190 --> 01:06:42,640
farmers market they don't have the

1839
01:06:47,190 --> 01:06:43,200
machine

1840
01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:47,200
you know walmart's got it

1841
01:06:50,390 --> 01:06:49,520
right yeah kraft macaroni and cheese you

1842
01:06:53,270 --> 01:06:50,400
can purchase

1843
01:06:54,789 --> 01:06:53,280
you know yep wonder bread all these

1844
01:06:57,029 --> 01:06:54,799
things that are bad for us

1845
01:06:58,230 --> 01:06:57,039
and corporate controlled because they

1846
01:06:59,910 --> 01:06:58,240
know they're crushing

1847
01:07:01,990 --> 01:06:59,920
the middle and lower class so they're

1848
01:07:03,190 --> 01:07:02,000
like all right let's put our lobbyists

1849
01:07:04,950 --> 01:07:03,200
in the government to give

1850
01:07:06,950 --> 01:07:04,960
people some money that they can only

1851
01:07:08,950 --> 01:07:06,960
selectively use on our products give it

1852
01:07:10,309 --> 01:07:08,960
right back to us and feel as if we're

1853
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:10,319
doing something for them

1854
01:07:14,549 --> 01:07:12,160
that's the other thing get rid of these

1855
01:07:17,109 --> 01:07:14,559
lobby organizations

1856
01:07:18,309 --> 01:07:17,119
what's that thing in 13 oh alec do you

1857
01:07:21,750 --> 01:07:18,319
know about alec

1858
01:07:24,789 --> 01:07:21,760
no oh alec is a

1859
01:07:25,750 --> 01:07:24,799
it's like a super lobby group that pulls

1860
01:07:29,190 --> 01:07:25,760
together

1861
01:07:32,069 --> 01:07:29,200
it's an organization of politicians and

1862
01:07:34,789 --> 01:07:32,079
corporations and some corporations that

1863
01:07:38,230 --> 01:07:34,799
have well walmart recently left alec

1864
01:07:38,950 --> 01:07:38,240
but lots of corporations are in alec and

1865
01:07:43,270 --> 01:07:38,960
they write

1866
01:07:45,910 --> 01:07:43,280
bills for politicians

1867
01:07:47,670 --> 01:07:45,920
and so the bill might be something like

1868
01:07:49,430 --> 01:07:47,680
a lot of second amendment bills come out

1869
01:07:49,910 --> 01:07:49,440
of alec because there's a lot of money

1870
01:07:54,309 --> 01:07:49,920
made

1871
01:07:56,390 --> 01:07:54,319
in selling ammunition for example

1872
01:07:58,069 --> 01:07:56,400
yeah you got to check out alec and your

1873
01:07:58,549 --> 01:07:58,079
listeners should check it out because

1874
01:08:00,950 --> 01:07:58,559
it's

1875
01:08:02,789 --> 01:08:00,960
they literally write the bills that

1876
01:08:04,549 --> 01:08:02,799
politicians bring to the floor and they

1877
01:08:06,150 --> 01:08:04,559
do it at both the national level and

1878
01:08:07,829 --> 01:08:06,160
also at the state level

1879
01:08:09,270 --> 01:08:07,839
it's a really fascinating way in which

1880
01:08:11,190 --> 01:08:09,280
you're propping up these

1881
01:08:13,510 --> 01:08:11,200
businesses through this legislative

1882
01:08:16,550 --> 01:08:13,520
system that appears to be

1883
01:08:17,510 --> 01:08:16,560
free and equal to all of us but clearly

1884
01:08:20,390 --> 01:08:17,520
isn't

1885
01:08:21,910 --> 01:08:20,400
right man there is a tangled web of

1886
01:08:23,590 --> 01:08:21,920
corruption out there and it's hard to

1887
01:08:25,510 --> 01:08:23,600
unravel at all

1888
01:08:28,149 --> 01:08:25,520
some solutions that you mentioned the

1889
01:08:30,470 --> 01:08:28,159
book that i liked well of course you say

1890
01:08:32,470 --> 01:08:30,480
we should pass laws that prohibit making

1891
01:08:34,229 --> 01:08:32,480
money off policing there should be no

1892
01:08:35,669 --> 01:08:34,239
finances involved at all

1893
01:08:37,669 --> 01:08:35,679
because obviously that's where you get

1894
01:08:39,269 --> 01:08:37,679
corruption and you incentivize

1895
01:08:41,030 --> 01:08:39,279
putting more people in jail and

1896
01:08:42,229 --> 01:08:41,040
ticketing more people you can't

1897
01:08:43,510 --> 01:08:42,239
do that because it's going to get

1898
01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:43,520
slanted and it's going to get out of

1899
01:08:46,309 --> 01:08:44,080
control

1900
01:08:48,390 --> 01:08:46,319
as it is you've also talked about

1901
01:08:51,749 --> 01:08:48,400
dismantling the private prison system

1902
01:08:53,910 --> 01:08:51,759
definitely pro on that and

1903
01:08:55,430 --> 01:08:53,920
all felony disenfranchisement laws need

1904
01:08:57,110 --> 01:08:55,440
to be immediately repealed and this one

1905
01:08:59,189 --> 01:08:57,120
was pretty creative you say

1906
01:09:01,030 --> 01:08:59,199
attorneys should be required to hold

1907
01:09:02,470 --> 01:09:01,040
malpractice insurance and those

1908
01:09:04,470 --> 01:09:02,480
wrongfully convicted

1909
01:09:06,149 --> 01:09:04,480
should have the right to sue for damages

1910
01:09:06,630 --> 01:09:06,159
i really like that i've actually thought

1911
01:09:08,630 --> 01:09:06,640
that

1912
01:09:09,990 --> 01:09:08,640
police officers should have a form of

1913
01:09:11,669 --> 01:09:10,000
malpractice insurance

1914
01:09:13,030 --> 01:09:11,679
if you're killing a bunch of people

1915
01:09:14,470 --> 01:09:13,040
you're going to get priced out it

1916
01:09:15,430 --> 01:09:14,480
doesn't matter what the police union

1917
01:09:16,789 --> 01:09:15,440
wants to protect

1918
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:16,799
doesn't matter what the police chief

1919
01:09:20,630 --> 01:09:18,960
wants to protect if you get insurance a

1920
01:09:22,550 --> 01:09:20,640
third-party insurance company involved

1921
01:09:24,950 --> 01:09:22,560
who only cares about those numbers

1922
01:09:26,870 --> 01:09:24,960
you will be priced out and we can reward

1923
01:09:28,390 --> 01:09:26,880
the good officers who will make a living

1924
01:09:29,269 --> 01:09:28,400
wage because they've done the right

1925
01:09:31,269 --> 01:09:29,279
thing so

1926
01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:31,279
i like that idea but i've never heard it

1927
01:09:37,309 --> 01:09:34,640
applied to attorneys that's creative

1928
01:09:39,590 --> 01:09:37,319
i like your idea of police officers

1929
01:09:42,870 --> 01:09:39,600
prosecutors

1930
01:09:47,030 --> 01:09:42,880
are never held accountable

1931
01:09:49,669 --> 01:09:47,040
for anything and there needs to be a way

1932
01:09:52,550 --> 01:09:49,679
to hold these prosecutors accountable

1933
01:09:56,390 --> 01:09:52,560
especially the ones that hide evidence

1934
01:10:00,310 --> 01:09:56,400
you know cheat lie set up these

1935
01:10:02,149 --> 01:10:00,320
phony grand juries take the secrecy out

1936
01:10:03,189 --> 01:10:02,159
of the grand jury process what's the big

1937
01:10:05,830 --> 01:10:03,199
deal

1938
01:10:07,910 --> 01:10:05,840
we want to know how these people see

1939
01:10:11,910 --> 01:10:07,920
what they've been asked to look at

1940
01:10:15,430 --> 01:10:11,920
but we never know and stop the killology

1941
01:10:15,990 --> 01:10:15,440
training of the police take them out of

1942
01:10:19,110 --> 01:10:16,000
combat

1943
01:10:20,229 --> 01:10:19,120
boots take away the long rifles take

1944
01:10:23,350 --> 01:10:20,239
away the you know

1945
01:10:26,709 --> 01:10:23,360
cargo pants and just have them

1946
01:10:29,669 --> 01:10:26,719
serving they're not soldiers look

1947
01:10:31,590 --> 01:10:29,679
i mean we see the soldiers in portland

1948
01:10:33,910 --> 01:10:31,600
in terms of what's happening there

1949
01:10:36,070 --> 01:10:33,920
and many many many police forces

1950
01:10:38,950 --> 01:10:36,080
including ferguson

1951
01:10:39,910 --> 01:10:38,960
show up as if they're in iraq or

1952
01:10:42,390 --> 01:10:39,920
somewhere

1953
01:10:44,630 --> 01:10:42,400
yes and i know we're running out of time

1954
01:10:46,550 --> 01:10:44,640
but just thinking about

1955
01:10:48,630 --> 01:10:46,560
like mentioned a little bit ago we spent

1956
01:10:50,470 --> 01:10:48,640
time doing research in solitary

1957
01:10:51,110 --> 01:10:50,480
confinement units in a huge prison

1958
01:10:53,910 --> 01:10:51,120
system

1959
01:10:55,350 --> 01:10:53,920
in a rural state that has suffered a lot

1960
01:10:58,070 --> 01:10:55,360
of economic

1961
01:10:58,790 --> 01:10:58,080
downturn and if you live in one of those

1962
01:11:01,270 --> 01:10:58,800
states and

1963
01:11:03,669 --> 01:11:01,280
you know rust belt states are an example

1964
01:11:06,630 --> 01:11:03,679
of those states ohio

1965
01:11:08,709 --> 01:11:06,640
pennsylvania parts of new york you know

1966
01:11:09,910 --> 01:11:08,719
a coal mine or a steel mill shuts and

1967
01:11:11,910 --> 01:11:09,920
you build a prison

1968
01:11:13,030 --> 01:11:11,920
what kind of economic development is

1969
01:11:14,870 --> 01:11:13,040
that and

1970
01:11:16,310 --> 01:11:14,880
what does that say about our country

1971
01:11:17,669 --> 01:11:16,320
that we think that

1972
01:11:19,430 --> 01:11:17,679
that's the way that we should lift

1973
01:11:20,310 --> 01:11:19,440
people out of poverty is to build a

1974
01:11:21,830 --> 01:11:20,320
prison

1975
01:11:23,669 --> 01:11:21,840
lock some of them up and make the rest

1976
01:11:27,270 --> 01:11:23,679
of them the keepers of the gate

1977
01:11:30,630 --> 01:11:27,280
and no other country does that and

1978
01:11:34,070 --> 01:11:30,640
all these wardens have gone to

1979
01:11:36,070 --> 01:11:34,080
norway yep switzerland

1980
01:11:37,990 --> 01:11:36,080
and they get on tv and they say oh my

1981
01:11:39,590 --> 01:11:38,000
gosh you know they treat people in

1982
01:11:42,950 --> 01:11:39,600
prison in these places

1983
01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:42,960
like human beings they want them to be

1984
01:11:48,709 --> 01:11:46,159
better people when they get out

1985
01:11:50,470 --> 01:11:48,719
when they're released right there hasn't

1986
01:11:53,030 --> 01:11:50,480
been and this has been going on

1987
01:11:54,790 --> 01:11:53,040
for a long time now there hasn't been

1988
01:11:57,750 --> 01:11:54,800
one thing that i can see

1989
01:12:00,470 --> 01:11:57,760
we can see that has been brought back

1990
01:12:03,510 --> 01:12:00,480
from those visitations

1991
01:12:07,189 --> 01:12:03,520
and implied here in the united states

1992
01:12:08,149 --> 01:12:07,199
not one right getting sent to prison is

1993
01:12:10,229 --> 01:12:08,159
just devastating

1994
01:12:11,350 --> 01:12:10,239
for a person and there's just no path

1995
01:12:14,149 --> 01:12:11,360
back in america

1996
01:12:14,870 --> 01:12:14,159
very sad there is none i mean pelican

1997
01:12:18,709 --> 01:12:14,880
bay

1998
01:12:19,669 --> 01:12:18,719
out where you are closed their solitary

1999
01:12:22,790 --> 01:12:19,679
units

2000
01:12:25,669 --> 01:12:22,800
quote unquote on paper

2001
01:12:27,510 --> 01:12:25,679
and rename those cells something else

2002
01:12:27,910 --> 01:12:27,520
administrative segregation and they're

2003
01:12:30,310 --> 01:12:27,920
still

2004
01:12:33,590 --> 01:12:30,320
solitary cells i mean it's that kind of

2005
01:12:37,270 --> 01:12:33,600
nonsense that's going on

2006
01:12:37,750 --> 01:12:37,280
man well so many problems so little time

2007
01:12:39,910 --> 01:12:37,760
but

2008
01:12:41,669 --> 01:12:39,920
i do think we covered a lot of ground

2009
01:12:43,830 --> 01:12:41,679
definitely glad we could highlight

2010
01:12:45,669 --> 01:12:43,840
aspects of our racial history that don't

2011
01:12:46,390 --> 01:12:45,679
get into the conversation as often as

2012
01:12:48,550 --> 01:12:46,400
they should

2013
01:12:51,270 --> 01:12:48,560
i'm glad we could talk about poverty

2014
01:12:51,910 --> 01:12:51,280
traps that people of all races can get

2015
01:12:55,750 --> 01:12:51,920
stuck in

2016
01:12:58,630 --> 01:12:55,760
and can unite around trying to improve

2017
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:58,640
and i commend you guys for focusing on

2018
01:13:03,030 --> 01:13:00,000
something that is so

2019
01:13:04,709 --> 01:13:03,040
raw before we go do remind the people of

2020
01:13:05,669 --> 01:13:04,719
your work that you've done together the

2021
01:13:07,189 --> 01:13:05,679
website and

2022
01:13:09,510 --> 01:13:07,199
anywhere else that they should follow up

2023
01:13:10,709 --> 01:13:09,520
to dive deeper into your work

2024
01:13:14,510 --> 01:13:10,719
yeah that would be great i think the

2025
01:13:19,470 --> 01:13:16,830
www.smithandhattery.com so it's

2026
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:19,480
s-m-i-t-h-a-n

2027
01:13:24,790 --> 01:13:22,239
h-a-t-t-e-r-y dot com

2028
01:13:25,510 --> 01:13:24,800
we have a blog that's pretty active we

2029
01:13:27,270 --> 01:13:25,520
have all

2030
01:13:28,790 --> 01:13:27,280
see all of the books that we have you

2031
01:13:30,550 --> 01:13:28,800
can arrange if you want to

2032
01:13:32,149 --> 01:13:30,560
invite us to speak on a program like

2033
01:13:33,669 --> 01:13:32,159
this so we're really grateful for the

2034
01:13:35,830 --> 01:13:33,679
opportunity

2035
01:13:37,590 --> 01:13:35,840
and yeah thank you very much for the

2036
01:13:37,990 --> 01:13:37,600
exposure and the conversation it's been

2037
01:13:40,310 --> 01:13:38,000
really

2038
01:13:41,350 --> 01:13:40,320
awesome yeah beautiful thank you thank

2039
01:13:43,990 --> 01:13:41,360
you very much

2040
01:13:45,669 --> 01:13:44,000
and thank you guys i appreciate the time

2041
01:13:47,510 --> 01:13:45,679
and all your credentials are very

2042
01:13:49,669 --> 01:13:47,520
impressive for little old me

2043
01:13:51,669 --> 01:13:49,679
and a lot of good information do take

2044
01:13:56,470 --> 01:13:51,679
care and keep fighting the good fight

2045
01:14:00,870 --> 01:13:58,790
all right all right all right smith and

2046
01:14:03,510 --> 01:14:00,880
hattery for the win

2047
01:14:05,270 --> 01:14:03,520
i thought that was a real enjoyable

2048
01:14:07,669 --> 01:14:05,280
conversation

2049
01:14:08,870 --> 01:14:07,679
i appreciate their approach of hey let's

2050
01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:08,880
just talk about this

2051
01:14:14,229 --> 01:14:11,920
it's raw it's uncomfortable we will have

2052
01:14:16,070 --> 01:14:14,239
some differences of opinion

2053
01:14:17,910 --> 01:14:16,080
but a lot of this stuff does just need

2054
01:14:20,390 --> 01:14:17,920
to be talked about

2055
01:14:21,030 --> 01:14:20,400
you know i like that if we keep letting

2056
01:14:23,830 --> 01:14:21,040
things go

2057
01:14:25,350 --> 01:14:23,840
unattended then we don't do anything to

2058
01:14:26,790 --> 01:14:25,360
fix them

2059
01:14:29,270 --> 01:14:26,800
that said i'm sure there will be

2060
01:14:31,590 --> 01:14:29,280
listeners who saw this episode pop up

2061
01:14:33,590 --> 01:14:31,600
and they think it's gonna be a bit

2062
01:14:35,910 --> 01:14:33,600
overkill given that we just had

2063
01:14:37,510 --> 01:14:35,920
angela j davis here talking about very

2064
01:14:39,910 --> 01:14:37,520
similar things

2065
01:14:41,350 --> 01:14:39,920
i get that but i did it for a couple of

2066
01:14:43,189 --> 01:14:41,360
reasons

2067
01:14:45,350 --> 01:14:43,199
one when i want to cover a subject

2068
01:14:47,990 --> 01:14:45,360
sometimes i send out several emails and

2069
01:14:50,390 --> 01:14:48,000
i might hear back from just one person

2070
01:14:52,070 --> 01:14:50,400
and that was the case here but then dr

2071
01:14:54,070 --> 01:14:52,080
hattery ended up getting back to me a

2072
01:14:56,070 --> 01:14:54,080
few weeks later

2073
01:14:57,910 --> 01:14:56,080
and i thought you know i still want to

2074
01:14:58,229 --> 01:14:57,920
do this because when i talked to angela

2075
01:15:02,790 --> 01:14:58,239
j

2076
01:15:05,669 --> 01:15:02,800
wanted to keep the conversation

2077
01:15:07,750 --> 01:15:05,679
on the criminal justice system and

2078
01:15:11,350 --> 01:15:07,760
prosecutors of course and rightfully so

2079
01:15:13,630 --> 01:15:11,360
it is her expertise i understand that

2080
01:15:16,390 --> 01:15:13,640
but i felt like we left a lot of

2081
01:15:18,149 --> 01:15:16,400
socioeconomic and structural elements

2082
01:15:21,430 --> 01:15:18,159
that really needed to be folded in

2083
01:15:24,229 --> 01:15:21,440
off the table and i feel better now

2084
01:15:25,189 --> 01:15:24,239
about covering the full picture or at

2085
01:15:27,990 --> 01:15:25,199
least a more

2086
01:15:29,750 --> 01:15:28,000
complete picture because i think smith

2087
01:15:31,350 --> 01:15:29,760
and hattery are pretty strong when it

2088
01:15:33,430 --> 01:15:31,360
comes to talking about those other

2089
01:15:36,310 --> 01:15:33,440
elements that make american life more

2090
01:15:38,790 --> 01:15:36,320
challenging for some of us especially in

2091
01:15:41,669 --> 01:15:38,800
the history which is really

2092
01:15:42,709 --> 01:15:41,679
what i wanted to focus on because i'm

2093
01:15:45,350 --> 01:15:42,719
personally

2094
01:15:47,270 --> 01:15:45,360
a lot less interested in a deep and

2095
01:15:50,310 --> 01:15:47,280
thorough conversation about

2096
01:15:53,590 --> 01:15:50,320
ethnic categories and their fluidity

2097
01:15:55,189 --> 01:15:53,600
or i guess race philosophy because i

2098
01:15:56,390 --> 01:15:55,199
just don't really know what to do with

2099
01:16:01,270 --> 01:15:56,400
that

2100
01:16:03,189 --> 01:16:01,280
the system has done to black communities

2101
01:16:05,990 --> 01:16:03,199
that are pretty shocking

2102
01:16:07,830 --> 01:16:06,000
i mentioned some of them in my intro and

2103
01:16:10,070 --> 01:16:07,840
of course we all know about

2104
01:16:11,110 --> 01:16:10,080
a situation like waco but what if it was

2105
01:16:13,110 --> 01:16:11,120
an attack

2106
01:16:14,390 --> 01:16:13,120
that only hit a black community would

2107
01:16:17,510 --> 01:16:14,400
you know

2108
01:16:19,510 --> 01:16:17,520
well look into the tulsa race massacre

2109
01:16:21,350 --> 01:16:19,520
in fact just let me read you the quick

2110
01:16:23,830 --> 01:16:21,360
version from wikipedia

2111
01:16:25,750 --> 01:16:23,840
the tulsa race massacre also called the

2112
01:16:29,310 --> 01:16:25,760
tulsa race riot

2113
01:16:32,630 --> 01:16:29,320
took place on may 31st and june 1st

2114
01:16:35,110 --> 01:16:32,640
1921 when mobs of white residents

2115
01:16:36,790 --> 01:16:35,120
many of them deputized and given weapons

2116
01:16:39,110 --> 01:16:36,800
by city officials

2117
01:16:40,229 --> 01:16:39,120
attacked black residents and businesses

2118
01:16:43,350 --> 01:16:40,239
of the greenwood

2119
01:16:45,430 --> 01:16:43,360
district in tulsa oklahoma it has been

2120
01:16:48,310 --> 01:16:45,440
called the single worst incident of

2121
01:16:50,870 --> 01:16:48,320
racial violence in american history

2122
01:16:52,470 --> 01:16:50,880
the attack carried out on the ground and

2123
01:16:55,510 --> 01:16:52,480
from private aircraft

2124
01:16:57,350 --> 01:16:55,520
destroyed more than 35 square blocks of

2125
01:16:59,510 --> 01:16:57,360
the district

2126
01:17:01,750 --> 01:16:59,520
at that time the wealthiest black

2127
01:17:03,750 --> 01:17:01,760
community in the united states known as

2128
01:17:05,830 --> 01:17:03,760
black wall street

2129
01:17:08,149 --> 01:17:05,840
more than 800 people were admitted to

2130
01:17:10,630 --> 01:17:08,159
hospitals and as many as 6 000

2131
01:17:12,149 --> 01:17:10,640
black residents were interned in large

2132
01:17:15,110 --> 01:17:12,159
facilities

2133
01:17:16,550 --> 01:17:15,120
the oklahoma bureau of vital statistics

2134
01:17:19,430 --> 01:17:16,560
officially recorded

2135
01:17:21,750 --> 01:17:19,440
36 dead but other sources have put the

2136
01:17:23,430 --> 01:17:21,760
number well into the hundreds

2137
01:17:25,350 --> 01:17:23,440
i mean i didn't even know about that

2138
01:17:27,750 --> 01:17:25,360
until fairly recently

2139
01:17:29,830 --> 01:17:27,760
and there's some serious conspiratorial

2140
01:17:30,630 --> 01:17:29,840
black history that i wish we were more

2141
01:17:34,070 --> 01:17:30,640
aware of

2142
01:17:36,070 --> 01:17:34,080
in conspiracy culture so today was an

2143
01:17:37,910 --> 01:17:36,080
attempt to get more into that

2144
01:17:40,070 --> 01:17:37,920
more into the poverty trap as well

2145
01:17:42,870 --> 01:17:40,080
something less racial in nature

2146
01:17:43,430 --> 01:17:42,880
but also important to understand i think

2147
01:17:46,470 --> 01:17:43,440
dr

2148
01:17:48,470 --> 01:17:46,480
hattery nailed it when she mentioned how

2149
01:17:50,229 --> 01:17:48,480
the lower and middle class workers have

2150
01:17:51,350 --> 01:17:50,239
been conditioned to think in terms of

2151
01:17:53,750 --> 01:17:51,360
black and white

2152
01:17:55,110 --> 01:17:53,760
just like blue and red and that these

2153
01:17:57,990 --> 01:17:55,120
are the key divisions that

2154
01:17:59,669 --> 01:17:58,000
keep the system intact i absolutely

2155
01:18:01,830 --> 01:17:59,679
think that's true the elite throw

2156
01:18:03,270 --> 01:18:01,840
poor white people a quarter and pour

2157
01:18:05,350 --> 01:18:03,280
black people a dime

2158
01:18:06,630 --> 01:18:05,360
and we spend all our time arguing about

2159
01:18:09,990 --> 01:18:06,640
that 15 cents

2160
01:18:12,630 --> 01:18:10,000
you know also getting into the prison

2161
01:18:13,910 --> 01:18:12,640
industrial complex and reconfigured

2162
01:18:17,430 --> 01:18:13,920
slave labor and

2163
01:18:18,709 --> 01:18:17,440
plantation prisons that stuff is exactly

2164
01:18:21,990 --> 01:18:18,719
what i had in mind too

2165
01:18:24,149 --> 01:18:22,000
so that was also a good section

2166
01:18:26,390 --> 01:18:24,159
so i liked it hopefully those of us who

2167
01:18:28,950 --> 01:18:26,400
hold different opinions on masks

2168
01:18:30,390 --> 01:18:28,960
can overlook a few coved comments that

2169
01:18:32,630 --> 01:18:30,400
made their way in there

2170
01:18:34,550 --> 01:18:32,640
obviously that wasn't in their book and

2171
01:18:37,750 --> 01:18:34,560
i tried to just bring it right back

2172
01:18:39,270 --> 01:18:37,760
as best i could really no big deal i

2173
01:18:40,310 --> 01:18:39,280
think we're all having these kind of

2174
01:18:43,110 --> 01:18:40,320
conversations

2175
01:18:44,229 --> 01:18:43,120
right now but in the second hour we got

2176
01:18:47,750 --> 01:18:44,239
more into the

2177
01:18:49,350 --> 01:18:47,760
debt peonage system exonerations in

2178
01:18:50,950 --> 01:18:49,360
particular man it's a shame we didn't

2179
01:18:52,950 --> 01:18:50,960
get there faster

2180
01:18:54,630 --> 01:18:52,960
i actually mentioned the bird watching

2181
01:18:55,110 --> 01:18:54,640
example and i think that woman did

2182
01:18:57,430 --> 01:18:55,120
actually

2183
01:18:59,430 --> 01:18:57,440
face a charge for that but that was

2184
01:19:01,590 --> 01:18:59,440
really interesting exonerations are

2185
01:19:02,709 --> 01:19:01,600
overwhelmingly for black men well what

2186
01:19:04,310 --> 01:19:02,719
does that mean

2187
01:19:06,630 --> 01:19:04,320
it means we put a lot of black men in

2188
01:19:08,870 --> 01:19:06,640
prison for things they didn't do

2189
01:19:10,470 --> 01:19:08,880
so what good is it citing crime

2190
01:19:13,030 --> 01:19:10,480
statistics if you're not going to

2191
01:19:15,030 --> 01:19:13,040
include exonerations

2192
01:19:16,790 --> 01:19:15,040
we also talked about reefer madness and

2193
01:19:19,270 --> 01:19:16,800
racism black families

2194
01:19:21,030 --> 01:19:19,280
and social norms and tax policies that

2195
01:19:24,310 --> 01:19:21,040
perpetuate poverty

2196
01:19:27,430 --> 01:19:24,320
and keep the poor and middle class from

2197
01:19:30,390 --> 01:19:27,440
establishing multi-generational wealth

2198
01:19:32,550 --> 01:19:30,400
and i think that is so important we know

2199
01:19:33,510 --> 01:19:32,560
why the elites stay the elite a lot of

2200
01:19:35,590 --> 01:19:33,520
times it is

2201
01:19:36,709 --> 01:19:35,600
that they circle the wagons around their

2202
01:19:38,950 --> 01:19:36,719
kind

2203
01:19:41,110 --> 01:19:38,960
and they pass it all down through the

2204
01:19:42,070 --> 01:19:41,120
generations including the playbook for

2205
01:19:45,149 --> 01:19:42,080
what they want to do

2206
01:19:47,350 --> 01:19:45,159
so it's not surprising to me that

2207
01:19:48,390 --> 01:19:47,360
multi-generational wealth is something

2208
01:19:51,189 --> 01:19:48,400
on their minds

2209
01:19:52,950 --> 01:19:51,199
and something that they try to make sure

2210
01:19:54,870 --> 01:19:52,960
they can throw a wrench in when we're

2211
01:19:56,870 --> 01:19:54,880
trying to achieve that

2212
01:19:59,350 --> 01:19:56,880
goes part and parcel with the education

2213
01:20:01,350 --> 01:19:59,360
conspiracy we're trained to be obedient

2214
01:20:03,990 --> 01:20:01,360
workers not free thinking

2215
01:20:05,910 --> 01:20:04,000
entrepreneurs but you know the drill

2216
01:20:07,750 --> 01:20:05,920
sign up for plus if you appreciate what

2217
01:20:09,110 --> 01:20:07,760
i'm doing around here

2218
01:20:11,510 --> 01:20:09,120
i know i'm still gonna get some

2219
01:20:14,229 --> 01:20:11,520
cancellations for this one and some

2220
01:20:15,990 --> 01:20:14,239
backlash because some listeners see

2221
01:20:18,790 --> 01:20:16,000
anything that tackles black

2222
01:20:20,229 --> 01:20:18,800
issues as me being a shill for black

2223
01:20:22,390 --> 01:20:20,239
lives matter

2224
01:20:25,030 --> 01:20:22,400
or buying into the big liberal agenda

2225
01:20:28,310 --> 01:20:25,040
and that's just sad because so much of

2226
01:20:28,870 --> 01:20:28,320
black lives matter to me is an elite

2227
01:20:31,669 --> 01:20:28,880
funded

2228
01:20:33,189 --> 01:20:31,679
operation in social division i agree

2229
01:20:34,950 --> 01:20:33,199
with a lot of those people it is a

2230
01:20:35,669 --> 01:20:34,960
corporate slogan that doesn't really say

2231
01:20:38,310 --> 01:20:35,679
anything

2232
01:20:39,750 --> 01:20:38,320
we change our profile picture people who

2233
01:20:42,629 --> 01:20:39,760
don't go along with it

2234
01:20:44,390 --> 01:20:42,639
must be racist and in the end most of

2235
01:20:45,669 --> 01:20:44,400
the donations that are sent to black

2236
01:20:47,830 --> 01:20:45,679
lives matter

2237
01:20:49,350 --> 01:20:47,840
which people think are going to lift up

2238
01:20:52,149 --> 01:20:49,360
black communities

2239
01:20:53,990 --> 01:20:52,159
actually just go to the dnc or to the

2240
01:20:56,709 --> 01:20:54,000
biden campaign

2241
01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:56,719
and that is very gross so yeah black

2242
01:21:00,709 --> 01:20:58,239
lives matter to me

2243
01:21:03,270 --> 01:21:00,719
the movement in its current incarnation

2244
01:21:05,430 --> 01:21:03,280
is largely an empty gesture

2245
01:21:07,350 --> 01:21:05,440
but the system is still slanted against

2246
01:21:09,189 --> 01:21:07,360
some people and we need to unpack it

2247
01:21:11,110 --> 01:21:09,199
both can be true

2248
01:21:14,229 --> 01:21:11,120
but instead of standing in the street

2249
01:21:17,350 --> 01:21:14,239
with a sign confronting police officers

2250
01:21:19,350 --> 01:21:17,360
maybe just include some black businesses

2251
01:21:21,750 --> 01:21:19,360
in your rotation

2252
01:21:23,590 --> 01:21:21,760
to me just going to a few local black

2253
01:21:24,470 --> 01:21:23,600
owned restaurants is going to do a lot

2254
01:21:28,229 --> 01:21:24,480
more

2255
01:21:30,310 --> 01:21:28,239
than sending a check to blm but either

2256
01:21:32,629 --> 01:21:30,320
way i tried to be fair in this one and i

2257
01:21:34,550 --> 01:21:32,639
threw out a lot of the negative feedback

2258
01:21:37,110 --> 01:21:34,560
that i got on the last episode

2259
01:21:38,390 --> 01:21:37,120
of this nature and tried to see what

2260
01:21:41,189 --> 01:21:38,400
today's guest would

2261
01:21:42,070 --> 01:21:41,199
think of some of that feedback if it had

2262
01:21:44,070 --> 01:21:42,080
any value

2263
01:21:45,669 --> 01:21:44,080
i definitely tried to throw it out there

2264
01:21:46,950 --> 01:21:45,679
although i think a lot of those people

2265
01:21:49,350 --> 01:21:46,960
based on

2266
01:21:50,950 --> 01:21:49,360
their language and the aggressiveness of

2267
01:21:52,870 --> 01:21:50,960
their comments i'm sure they've given up

2268
01:21:54,390 --> 01:21:52,880
on me already

2269
01:21:55,830 --> 01:21:54,400
i don't think this came up until the

2270
01:21:58,229 --> 01:21:55,840
second hour but i think it's also

2271
01:22:00,550 --> 01:21:58,239
important to reiterate that i feel

2272
01:22:01,270 --> 01:22:00,560
that the media selectively shows us

2273
01:22:04,310 --> 01:22:01,280
white cop

2274
01:22:06,470 --> 01:22:04,320
on black man incidents to increase

2275
01:22:08,149 --> 01:22:06,480
racial tensions and try to get these

2276
01:22:10,470 --> 01:22:08,159
riots started

2277
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:10,480
so i try not to just focus on the

2278
01:22:14,709 --> 01:22:11,440
specific

2279
01:22:17,350 --> 01:22:14,719
murder by cop thing because

2280
01:22:19,830 --> 01:22:17,360
that's a manipulated aspect but to look

2281
01:22:20,629 --> 01:22:19,840
more broadly at policing and as their

2282
01:22:22,870 --> 01:22:20,639
book title

2283
01:22:25,270 --> 01:22:22,880
says surveillance and management and

2284
01:22:28,390 --> 01:22:25,280
monitoring of black men

2285
01:22:30,070 --> 01:22:28,400
there's a lot there starting with kids

2286
01:22:32,550 --> 01:22:30,080
and you can think whatever you want to

2287
01:22:36,149 --> 01:22:32,560
think but for me it was a disservice

2288
01:22:37,590 --> 01:22:36,159
to the black friends i do have that we

2289
01:22:39,270 --> 01:22:37,600
have gone a long time without bringing

2290
01:22:41,910 --> 01:22:39,280
some of this stuff up

2291
01:22:42,950 --> 01:22:41,920
i think it's always in the recipe and i

2292
01:22:45,510 --> 01:22:42,960
do hate to

2293
01:22:46,870 --> 01:22:45,520
be thought of as trendy with this kind

2294
01:22:49,510 --> 01:22:46,880
of thing but

2295
01:22:51,750 --> 01:22:49,520
here we are so i just hope the majority

2296
01:22:51,990 --> 01:22:51,760
of thc listeners can see what i was

2297
01:22:55,430 --> 01:22:52,000
trying

2298
01:22:58,350 --> 01:22:55,440
to go for i don't think we need to

2299
01:23:00,470 --> 01:22:58,360
hang on every word here or be so

2300
01:23:01,510 --> 01:23:00,480
uncompromising and rigid when we hear a

2301
01:23:04,149 --> 01:23:01,520
point or two

2302
01:23:06,390 --> 01:23:04,159
we might disagree with maybe just let it

2303
01:23:08,790 --> 01:23:06,400
go sometimes and bring the conversation

2304
01:23:11,350 --> 01:23:08,800
back to common ground

2305
01:23:12,390 --> 01:23:11,360
but even if we disregard the super aggro

2306
01:23:15,430 --> 01:23:12,400
negative feedback

2307
01:23:15,910 --> 01:23:15,440
i've gotten lately i'm also just hearing

2308
01:23:20,470 --> 01:23:15,920
that

2309
01:23:23,030 --> 01:23:20,480
trying to get into some nuance here

2310
01:23:24,149 --> 01:23:23,040
but anything political or cultural is

2311
01:23:28,310 --> 01:23:24,159
just very

2312
01:23:29,590 --> 01:23:28,320
fatiguing right now 2020 is just a very

2313
01:23:31,510 --> 01:23:29,600
heavy year

2314
01:23:33,110 --> 01:23:31,520
and we have a mix of listeners where

2315
01:23:36,310 --> 01:23:33,120
some look to thc

2316
01:23:37,669 --> 01:23:36,320
to help them cope some come looking for

2317
01:23:39,430 --> 01:23:37,679
hope

2318
01:23:42,070 --> 01:23:39,440
and some want to hear something

2319
01:23:45,189 --> 01:23:42,080
completely out of the box and unrelated

2320
01:23:47,189 --> 01:23:45,199
to what they're getting everywhere else

2321
01:23:49,350 --> 01:23:47,199
so i'm gonna try to get a lot weirder in

2322
01:23:51,510 --> 01:23:49,360
the second half of 2020

2323
01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:51,520
of course guest suggestions are always

2324
01:23:54,229 --> 01:23:52,639
valuable because

2325
01:23:56,229 --> 01:23:54,239
those are some of the hardest shows to

2326
01:23:57,590 --> 01:23:56,239
do if you are a plus member there is a

2327
01:23:59,990 --> 01:23:57,600
forum

2328
01:24:02,310 --> 01:24:00,000
thread that is for guest suggestions

2329
01:24:04,149 --> 01:24:02,320
don't be shy

2330
01:24:05,910 --> 01:24:04,159
i really enjoyed today's guests and i

2331
01:24:07,830 --> 01:24:05,920
hope that we all got something out of

2332
01:24:10,229 --> 01:24:07,840
the show but i also really had a blast

2333
01:24:13,590 --> 01:24:10,239
with phoenix aurelius bruce fenton

2334
01:24:16,629 --> 01:24:13,600
and the last episode with josh and tim

2335
01:24:18,870 --> 01:24:16,639
in fact our next guest is or

2336
01:24:20,950 --> 01:24:18,880
was supposed to be chris knowles but the

2337
01:24:21,830 --> 01:24:20,960
east coast is getting hit by a hurricane

2338
01:24:24,550 --> 01:24:21,840
right now

2339
01:24:26,550 --> 01:24:24,560
and he hasn't had power for like three

2340
01:24:30,390 --> 01:24:26,560
days now

2341
01:24:31,430 --> 01:24:30,400
man 2020 am i right guys but the show

2342
01:24:34,229 --> 01:24:31,440
will go on

2343
01:24:36,310 --> 01:24:34,239
thanks for listening dig deeper into

2344
01:24:37,910 --> 01:24:36,320
smith and hattery if you want to digest

2345
01:24:40,070 --> 01:24:37,920
more of their work

2346
01:24:43,110 --> 01:24:40,080
and i'll see you next time i've done my

2347
01:24:43,990 --> 01:24:43,120
part your move racial oppressors poverty

2348
01:24:47,750 --> 01:24:44,000
perpetuators

2349
01:24:50,870 --> 01:24:47,760
and plantation prison operators you're

2350
01:24:54,310 --> 01:24:50,880
[\h__\h] new they built

2351
01:24:58,709 --> 01:24:54,320
a little empire out of

2352
01:25:02,140 --> 01:24:58,719
some crazy garbage called the blood

2353
01:25:03,990 --> 01:25:02,150
of the exploited working class

2354
01:25:08,070 --> 01:25:04,000
[Music]

2355
01:25:12,070 --> 01:25:08,080
but they've overcome their shyness

2356
01:25:13,110 --> 01:25:12,080
now we're calling them your highness and

2357
01:25:19,189 --> 01:25:13,120
the world

2358
01:25:26,470 --> 01:25:22,550
they destroyed the bonds of friendship

2359
01:25:30,229 --> 01:25:26,480
and respect between the only

2360
01:25:33,510 --> 01:25:30,239
people left who'd even look them

2361
01:25:41,350 --> 01:25:37,510
now they laugh and make a fortune

2362
01:25:44,950 --> 01:25:41,360
off the same ones that they tortured

2363
01:25:49,189 --> 01:25:44,960
and a world screams save me

2364
01:25:56,950 --> 01:25:49,199
thc let's look for

2365
01:26:03,750 --> 01:26:00,070
jesus is so far

2366
01:26:08,070 --> 01:26:03,760
away now you're

2367
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:19,669
[Music]

2368
01:26:27,270 --> 01:26:22,870
a little empire out of

2369
01:26:32,629 --> 01:26:27,280
some crazy garbage called the blood

2370
01:26:40,390 --> 01:26:36,709
but they've overcome their shyness

2371
01:26:48,830 --> 01:26:40,400
now we're calling them your highness